Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearance?

[minitour]

Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

From the Instrument Flying Handbook:

That's super and everything, but I refuse to believe that I've been the only pilot on the planet asked "would you like clearance through the uncontrolled airspace?". I'm just not that lucky. ATC can, has and will issue you a clearance through class G airspace.

Your clearance on the ground isn't "upon entering controlled airspace, you are cleared to___ via___". It's 1) "You are cleared to___ 2) via upon entering controlled airspace...

Kind of like "N12345 is cleared to TEB via direct ABC vor join the ABC 110 radial to MYFIX direct ABCDE V123 V98, etc...."

So are you not officially cleared until you're direct to ABC?

-mini

 

[Blackhawk]

Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

That's super and everything, but I refuse to believe that I've been the only pilot on the planet asked "would you like clearance through the uncontrolled airspace?". I'm just not that lucky. ATC can, has and will issue you a clearance through class G airspace.

Your clearance on the ground isn't "upon entering controlled airspace, you are cleared to___ via___". It's 1) "You are cleared to___ 2) via upon entering controlled airspace...

Kind of like "N12345 is cleared to TEB via direct ABC vor join the ABC 110 radial to MYFIX direct ABCDE V123 V98, etc...."

So are you not officially cleared until you're direct to ABC?

-mini

I've given an FAA reference, what's your reference?
That is correct. You are not officially cleared until entering the controlled airspace. The other examples you have given are different- you are already in controlled airspace which is why you do not have the blurb about entering controlled airspace. ATC can not clear you until then as they have no idea what is operating in class G airspace, even IFR, so they can not give you clearance from other aircraft. Even in non-RADAR controlled airspace this is their responsibility- the seperation of IFR aircraft. In class G, they can not provide this, so they can not clear you.
In the many years I have been flying from San Juan Island to Key West I have never been given or heard given "would you like clearance through uncontrolled airspace." That's a new by me and I'm not sure you will find it in any controller glossary. Let me know if you find it.

 

[minitour]

Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

That's a new by me and I'm not sure you will find it in any controller glossary. Let me know if you find it.

Heard it over the radio damn near every day just west/northwest of PHX.

Not sure if it's in the glossary, but neither is "g'day".

-mini

 

[drunkenbeagle]

Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

You do not require a clearance to fly in instrument meterological conditions in class G airspace.

:yeahthat:

As long as you are instrument rated and current, you can fly in IMC in Golf airspace. It doesn't matter if you have filed a flight plan or not. What happens if you depart and can't reach ATC to get a clearance? You would have to stay in the Golf and land (at minimums, how? good question..) You would have just completed a flight in IMC with no IFR flight plan. Since you never got an IFR clearance, you were never IFR. Filing the flight plan does not give you a clearance to do anything. It will cancel automatically if you can't reach ATC to open it.

The big thing is don't enter controlled airpsace IMC without a clearance to do so.

Let's look at three towered airports in FL. KSPG and KSUA are Delta airspaces, Golf when the tower is closed. KPIE is Delta, but Echo when the tower closes. I would guess that is because St Pete FSS is located at KPIE and you would expect to get a clearance on the ground. At KSPG, you may well not reach anyone on the ground, but you could depart in IMC, and remain in the Golf airspace until recieving a clearance. You could even file in the air. Before cellphones, this was a big deal. At a remote airport with no telephones, this would be the only way for you to depart in IMC.

Important to note on departure, if you can't reach ATC, you would have to land inside the Golf. But you wouldn't be able to fly an approach, since that is probably in Echo airspace. I'm not sure what you would do there - squak 7600 probably, and hope they notice you. Without a transponder code, they will have no idea who you are. Squaking 7700 might be a better idea, since even being NORDO you technically aren't cleared out of the Golf. I personally would not depart into IMC in a Golf airspace without a clearance unless I knew the weather and terrain were such that I could land.

If it is possible to recieve a clearance on the ground, you would always want to do so. Just because some things are legal doesn't make them a good idea.

 

[nosehair]

Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

Heard it over the radio damn near every day just west/northwest of PHX.

You've probably heard controllers clear you for a 'straight-in' approach when the AIM procedures require a procedure turn, to use just one example of local controlers using local deviations to standard procedure. It is not legal to issue a clearance in uncontrolled airspace. That controller is probably a good guy trying to make the system work. But you cannot use it as an example to justify your opinion of the system.

In your original argument of the legality, you cite the case that used 91.13, because that was the problem - he was acting in a careless and reckless manner in the way he did the imc into class g.

It isn't that they will violate when they catch you, it is when your imc in uncontrolled airspace intrudes into another controlled airspace ifr cleared flight.

There are thousands, maybe millions of square miles of class g at high altitudes in mountainous valleys where imc flight would be impossible if it had to be on a clearance. No phone - no radio, and no traffic, so let the guy know the rules - not your personal opinion.

 

[minitour]

Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

You've probably heard controllers clear you for a 'straight-in' approach when the AIM procedures require a procedure turn, to use just one example of local controlers using local deviations to standard procedure. It is not legal to issue a clearance in uncontrolled airspace. That controller is probably a good guy trying to make the system work. But you cannot use it as an example to justify your opinion of the system.

That's quite possible considering I don't recall having heard it anywhere else. Not to say that I haven't had "in one ear and out the other" moments.

In your original argument of the legality, you cite the case that used 91.13, because that was the problem - he was acting in a careless and reckless manner in the way he did the imc into class g.

It isn't that they will violate when they catch you, it is when your imc in uncontrolled airspace intrudes into another controlled airspace ifr cleared flight.

...and without a clearance you will know for sure that you're separated how, exactly?

You won't...until you've landed without incident.

It's legal until you get violated.

...let the guy know the rules - not your personal opinion.

I think I did just that. You'll notice my reference to 91.173 in a few posts. Actually he got both the rules and my opinion from me. A mini-two-fer-one.

Now all of that being said, it's still going to be hard to convince me that I'm the only person ever asked if he'd like clearance through the uncontrolled airspace. I'm just not that "good".

-mini

 

[Blackhawk]

Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

You won't find it because it doesn't exist.

It very clear that an instrument rated pilot may legally fly in IMC in Class G without an ATC clearance (ATC has no control authority over uncontrolled airspace - that's the whole idea) and without an IFR flight plan (which, by regulation, is only required in controlled airspace).

But...

There are situations, typically involving potential interference with aircraft in nearby controlled airspace) where the FAA will and has considered the lack of a flight plan reckless conduct.

Here's an example that talks about both the technical legality of instrument flight in Class G and a situation where they were satisfied that it was potentially dangerous to others:
http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/AVIATION/3935.PDF

Kind of hard to gather from the case, but my feeling/opinion was that if this had been a straight IFR in class G nothing would have come of it, but that it involved continuing into class E airspace and thus the problem. Not sure what your thoughts on it are.

 

[Fly_Unity]

Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

One thing that nobody mentioned is that when IMC in uncontrolled airspace, you HAVE to obey all IFR flight rules even if your not talking to anyone. 91.177 gives you your minimum altitudes (2000 AGL within 4 NM in mountainous areas). Taking off and remaining under the class E 700 shelf or 1200 shelf is illegal.

Also according to the Denver FSDO its illegal to CANCEL IFR (when less then VFR) in uncontrolled airspace (he quoted me the FAR to back it up but I cant find it now)

Here in Wyoming there is quite a bit of uncontrolled airspace that goes up to 14,500 that has no radar service, or communication service with ATC. IF you and the airplane are instrument rated and current, AND your obeying ALL IFR flight rules, Then I would say its legal as long as your not dangerous and reckless

 

[minitour]

Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

Also according to the Denver FSDO its illegal to CANCEL IFR in uncontrolled airspace (he quoted me the FAR to back it up but I cant find it now)

So when you do your approach to minimums at the uncontrolled (class G) airport with Class E starting at 700'..........................you have to remain IFR for the rest of your life? How does the guy behind you get in?

-mini

 

[Fly_Unity]

Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

So when you do your approach to minimums at the uncontrolled (class G) airport with Class E starting at 700'..........................you have to remain IFR for the rest of your life? How does the guy behind you get in?

-mini

I meant when still IMC.
FSDO said its legal to enter IMC in class G airspace from Visual Flight Rules, Not from an IFR, IMC flight.

Now every FSDO will probabaly have a different answer

 

[RynoB]

Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

If you picked up your clearance on the ground, you've been cleared. Your first instruction may be "upon entering controlled arispace, fly..." but that doesn't mean you haven't been "cleared to___ via___, etc.". If you pick it up in the air, you should be maintaining VFR. If you blast off into the clouds, hoping to pick up your clearance by 1200', then that does indeed seem careless and reckless.

-mini

This is my line of thinking. In many parts of Western KS, OK, and TX that I have flown you are lucky if you can get ATC on the radio below 1200 AGL. So if you thought you could take off in the soup and stay below 700/1200 until you pick up your clearance, then you would be in for a shock. And like mini said, there have been many times I have departed (VFR) to pick up my clearance when airborne, and ATC gives me a squawk and tells me to maintain VFR. That could be hard to do if you are already in the goo.

 

[RynoB]

Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

And mini, you are not crazy. I've received a through clearance many times in west TX at class G airports. I've never been able to find official documentation on what a through clearance is, but I've done it. It allows us to land, drop our passengers, and takeoff again without cancelling our previous clearance and having to call FSS for the new clearance.

 

[Blackhawk]

Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

And mini, you are not crazy. I've received a through clearance many times in west TX at class G airports. I've never been able to find official documentation on what a through clearance is, but I've done it. It allows us to land, drop our passengers, and takeoff again without cancelling our previous clearance and having to call FSS for the new clearance.

I think that is a "through clearance" as in a turn around clearance rather than a "through clearance" as in cleared into class G airspace. Even if they say something about a clearance in class G, they are mis-speaking as it is something they can not grant unless it is a special circumstance, such as a TFR.

 

[RynoB]

Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

I think that is a "through clearance" as in a turn around clearance rather than a "through clearance" as in cleared into class G airspace. Even if they say something about a clearance in class G, they are mis-speaking as it is something they can not grant unless it is a special circumstance, such as a TFR.

I did find the definition in the P/C Glossary. "CLEARED THROUGH: ATC authorization for an aircraft to make intermediate stops at specified airports without refiling a flight plan while en route to the clearance limit."

So it is essentially a way to revise your clearance limit.

 

[MikeD]

Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

I did find the definition in the P/C Glossary. "CLEARED THROUGH: ATC authorization for an aircraft to make intermediate stops at specified airports without refiling a flight plan while en route to the clearance limit."

So it is essentially a way to revise your clearance limit.

Sounds just like the Stopover Flight Plan format, minus the full stops.

 

[ghogue]

Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

Not being a controller, I can't say with any specificity what the following means. Just wanted to include it here because it seems to have a bearing on the discussion.

Not sure if the instruction to include routes through Class G constitutes a clearance from the controller. Any controllers here have any input on this?


7110.65S

4-4-5. CLASS G AIRSPACE ​

Include routes through Class G airspace only when requested by the pilot. ​

NOTE-
1. Flight plans filed for random RNAV routes through Class G airspace are considered a request by the pilot. ​

2. Flight plans containing MTR segments in/through Class G airspace are considered a request by the pilot. ​

 

[SoCalFlyer2]

Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

so it's pefectly legal... I guess I lost this bet! Thanks everyone for your input. Very educational...

 

[woutlaw]

Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

Western North and South Dakota have a bunch of G. This was actually a discussion on my Inst checkride. I said it was legal (right answer), but that I could not think of a reason I would ever do it. The examinars point was if you were at an airport without phone coverage in the middle of no where Norht Dakota, you could depart and stay in G and climb high enough to contact center and pick up a clearance.

Still dont think Id do it though...

Was the DPE Bill Sr.?

 

[MNFlyGuy]

Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

Was the DPE Bill Sr.?

John Roberts...From what I have heard Bill Sr. is big on compass errors. One of my buddies had to walk around with a big compass explaining errors on his II ride.

 

[woutlaw]

Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

John Roberts...From what I have heard Bill Sr. is big on compass errors. One of my buddies had to walk around with a big compass explaining errors on his II ride.

Ahhh, that's right. I sent a guy on an instrument check ride and he got that same scenario. I couldn't remember if it was Bill Sr. or Roberts.

Sr. does love the compass and the ADF. I didn't have to walk around the room explaining the compass errors during my II ride with Bill, thankfully but I'd been prepped pretty well on what to say.

"Tell me about the compass:" It's your best friend in the airplane Bill, it's the only thing that will actually tell you where North is.

"Tell me about the ADF:" Brilliant invention Bill! It always points to the station, unlike those pesky VORs.

Sr's a hoot and pretty sharp. I really enjoyed both rides I wound up doing with him.