how would you log this?

Douglas said:
Wow, it sounds like people are making this waaaay to hard.

Did you do this all in the same day?

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1. X-C for a rating has to over 50 nm, with a landing.
2. (135 experience can use...) All other X-C is anytime you navigate to another airport and land. (Even if it is 5 miles away, you still used pilotage and goes into the log book as such.)
3. For your ATP Certificate you need X-C time over 50 nm way, but this says you don't have to actually land for it to count if you are over 50 nm away.
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These three cover every single possibility.
If you put them all on different lines it doesn't matter or if you put them all on one line....still doesn't matter.
You put the total x-c time in the x-c column.
I suggest two x-c columns. One for over >50 and another for all x-c.
Gleim has a good log book in that regard.
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:yeahthat:A concise presentation that gets all the facts across! Nice work. I would (for me in NJ personally) recommend to have a 3rd sections in your logbook though, for us here in NJ and maybe other places an XC-ATP. For many NJ airports we fly the VFR cooridor which puts us out over 50 NM and we can use that for ATP rating. If you fly photo flights long distances without landing or towing banners if they go over 50?, grand cannon tours?, I am not sure when you might do that kind of flying. But you should analyze the type of flying you do and add this if it applys to you. :)

And lol yes they certainly would have dug themselves a BIG hole with the examiner trying to analyze this one. Careful on your next ride fellas ;)
 
Now that you guys have this settled about logging X-C, let me add another way to think about 50NM and OPD. Our military aero club rules include 'local area' being a 50 NM ring around the base. Anywhere inside this ring is local regardless if you fly to the edge of the ring and then along the diameter to the other side (say 99 NM). Outside of the ring is X-C.

Also, our local DPE and FSDO take a very dim view of 'repositioning' flights to cover the mileage requirements. That said, overnight stays can be convincing.
 
richarms said:
Now that you guys have this settled about logging X-C, let me add another way to think about 50NM and OPD. Our military aero club rules include 'local area' being a 50 NM ring around the base. Anywhere inside this ring is local regardless if you fly to the edge of the ring and then along the diameter to the other side (say 99 NM). Outside of the ring is X-C.
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This is identicle to the ATP requirement which says 50 NM miles from the point of departure (discussed above) in which you don't have to land for it to count. :)


Key Word: Reasonable.
They have to have a reason. Not just "Hey, you're the closest guy standing to me, give me your logbook!"
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They don't have to have any reason. It is a ramp check and can be given at anytime for any reason. I know it sucks, whats that about having rights?!
 
SteveC said:
Personally I think that DuPage is the originating airport for DPA-RFD-MDW-DPA.
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...and therefore those flights don't qualify as cross-country for the purpose of meeting the requirements for a private pilot certificate. (paraphrasing my thoughts)

I'm not following all of the reg quoting and banter going on since I posted the above. Can anyone tell me if I got it right or wrong???
 
SteveC said:
...and therefore those flights don't qualify as cross-country for the purpose of meeting the requirements for a private pilot certificate. (paraphrasing my thoughts)

I'm not following all of the reg quoting and banter going on since I posted the above. Can anyone tell me if I got it right or wrong???
Click to expand...

I am unsure now if you were right or wrong because it seems you are changing your story? If you are agreeing with him him in this post thinking that you cannot use it. Then you are wrong you certainly can use it for the rating. As shown by tyson with:
1. X-C for a rating has to over 50 nm, with a landing.
Click to expand...

Think about it, how can your student do 150 nm flight where only 1 leg has to be over 50 NM and you can plan something like KXXX - KXYX(30nm) - KXYY (70nm) - KXXX (50nm) and log that all as cross country time right? Flying a total 150nm but one airport is 30nm from the point of departure and the other is 50nm, but those two are 70nm apart. For the regulation all you have to do is have 1 leg over 50nm miles with a total flight time of 2.5 hours and 150nm. For the purposes of loging xc time towards any rating, with the acception of ATP, you must have 1 point of landing greater than 50nm away from the point of departure. In this case DPA is the point of departure so if either RFD or MDW are greater than 50nm from DPA he is safe to log it as XC except for when applying for ATP.

That help?
 
shdw said:
i am unsure now if you were right or wrong because it seems you are changing your story? If you are agreeing with him him in this post thinking that you cannot use it. Then you are wrong you certainly can use it for the rating. As shown by tyson with:


Think about it, how can your student do 150 nm flight where only 1 leg has to be over 50 nm and you can plan something like kxxx - kxyx(30nm) - kxyy (70nm) - kxxx (50nm) and log that all as cross country time right? Flying a total 150nm but one airport is 30nm from the point of departure and the other is 50nm, but those two are 70nm apart. For the regulation all you have to do is have 1 leg over 50nm miles with a total flight time of 2.5 hours and 150nm. For the purposes of loging xc time towards any rating, with the acception of atp, you must have 1 point of landing greater than 50nm away from the point of departure. In this case dpa is the point of departure so if either rfd or mdw are greater than 50nm from dpa he is safe to log it as xc except for when applying for atp.

That help?
Click to expand...

dpa - rfd = 42 nm
dpa - mdw = 23 nm
 
Thanks, we are on the same page then. :)

edit to add: Here was my earlier post:

SteveC said:
Well, I suppose I should take back my answer until you tell me whether the logging is just X-C logging in general, or for the purposes of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements of a certificate or rating, and if so, which certificate or rating.

The answers can be found in 61.1(b)(3).

My first answer still stands (it's all cross-country) if you are just logging cross country time. If you are logging it for Private, Commercial, ATP certificates or Instrument rating, then NONE of it is cross-country time. If you are logging it towards a Sport Pilot (powered parachute or not), Rotorcraft, and a few other ratings, the ALL of it is cross-country time.
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SteveC said:
dpa - rfd = 42 nm
dpa - mdw = 23 nm
Click to expand...

MR. C

From the original post, it looked like the flight went...

DPA Direct RFD Direct MDW Direct DPA

The OP said it was all in one flight so I took is as such.

RFD-MDW leg is 64 NM.

If this is the real route of the flight, it should be logged X-C in every possible use.

OP: can you clear up the route question?

EDIT: My answer - All x-c and it all counts towards your next ratings solo x-c requirement (61)....if in fact you were solo.
 
Douglas said:
The OP said it was all in one flight so I took is as such.

RFD-MDW leg is 64 NM.

If this is the real route of the flight, it should be logged X-C in every possible use.

OP: can you clear up the route question?

EDIT: My answer - All x-c and it all counts towards your next ratings solo x-c requirement (61)....if in fact you were solo.
Click to expand...


If this:

1. The purpose of repositioning (emphasis: purpose of repositioning) the aircraft to another airport, to start a cross-country flight in order to meet the 250 nautical miles cross-country requirements of § 61.129(a)(4)(i).
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can be applied to private pilot a rating or instrument rating then I would agree with you Douglas and say that you can just have RFD as the original point of departure in which case you can log it as X-C time.

I think based on § 61.1(b)(3)(ii) you are right and it can be used for any X-C for the purposes of a certificate/rating.
 
Douglas said:
MR. C

From the original post, it looked like the flight went...

DPA Direct RFD Direct MDW Direct DPA

The OP said it was all in one flight so I took is as such.

RFD-MDW leg is 64 NM.

If this is the real route of the flight, it should be logged X-C in every possible use.

OP: can you clear up the route question?

EDIT: My answer - All x-c and it all counts towards your next ratings solo x-c requirement (61)....if in fact you were solo.
Click to expand...

My reasoning is that this:
Departure for the purpose of conducting a “round robin” cross-country flight is a normal scenario where “original point of departure” and destination are the same. The “original point of departure” does not change with a new day or delay.
Click to expand...
...tells me that DPA is the original point of departure for the round robin crosscountry flight DPA-RFD-MDW-DPA. Neither RFD nor MDW are more than 50NM from the original point of departure, thus NONE of the legs are qualified X-C legs towards the cert/rating requirements.

IF you can convince me that the first leg is a "repositioning" flight (which I'm not excited about agreeing to :) ), then it should not be included in the cross-country logging. He could only log RFD-MDW-DPA as X-C (again, with the caveat about "repositioning" being a legitimate factor - not agreeing to that one yet).

Edit to add:

I'm especially not keen on the repositioning argument because the example says...
The purpose of repositioning (emphasis: purpose of repositioning) the aircraft to another airport, to start a cross-country flight in order to meet the 250 nautical miles cross-country requirements of § 61.129(a)(4)(i).
Click to expand...
(Bold added for emphasis)

It hardly appears to me that this flight was intended to meet the 250NM X-C.

Ball is in your court. :)
 
IF you can convince me that the first leg is a "repositioning" flight (which I'm not excited about agreeing to :) ), then it should not be included in the cross-country logging. He could only log RFD-MDW-DPA as X-C (again, with the caveat about "repositioning" being a legitimate factor - not agreeing to that one yet).
Click to expand...

Oh boy this is going to require some heavy regulation research. I will take a bow out at this point and let the rest of you have at it with this. Enjoy :)

Aww man I couldn't leave it at that now that I read this:

(Bold added for emphasis)

It hardly appears to me that this flight was intended to meet the 250NM X-C requirements.

Ball is in your court. :)
Click to expand...

I believe that was an example not an be all end all answer to the question. Here is why:

Adherence to these strict definitions of cross-country and the “original point of departure” is only necessary when the purpose is for crediting cross-country aeronautical experience for the furtherance of a pilot certificate and rating. Cross-country aeronautical experience acquired in pursuit of a private pilot certificate, commercial pilot certificate, and an instrument rating must meet the requirements of § 61.1(b)(3)(ii) or (iii) with a landing beyond 50 nautical miles for airplanes or 25 nautical miles for rotorcraft from the original point of departure. Cross-country aeronautical experience acquired in pursuit of an airline transport pilot certificate (except rotorcraft category) must meet the requirements of § 61.1(b)(3)(iv) and military pilots’ cross-country aeronautical experience is addressed in § 61.1(b)(3)(v).
Click to expand...

Bold is the part I am concerned with and think it is why you can reposition in this case. This sounds like you can reposition if if is for the purpose of a rating/certificate. What do you think?
 
shdw said:
Oh boy this is going to require some heavy regulation research. I will take a bow out at this point and let the rest of you have at it with this. Enjoy :)
Click to expand...

< check my edit which I added at the end of the post above >

:D
 
shdw said:
Bold is the part I am concerned with and think it is why you can reposition in this case. This sounds like you can reposition if if is for the purpose of a rating/certificate. What do you think?
Click to expand...
I think you should read the sentence immediately prior to the one that you bolded and maybe it will alter your perception of what that paragraph is telling us. :)
 
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