User Fees a good thing?

[ctab5060X]

Of course it is. You have your agenda, I have mine. Buy an airline ticket if you want to "go see Grandma." And, if you want to fly yourself for free use an out of the way GA airport and go VFR. Seems simple enough to me.

But, if you're a fatcat and want to fly your family/friends somewhere in your Citation X, pay for the privilege. You can afford it.

Likewise if you're a FLAP and just want to tool over to Santa Paula for a burger, go VFR. Otherwise pay for it. You can afford it too.

Face facts, kids. Aviation is expensive. You want to play, you'll just have to prune some of your other expenses to participate. I can't afford it, so I don't do it.

First off I don't have an agenda, but obviously you do. Why would I buy an airline ticket and cost myself 6 hours of my valuable time when I can go to the airport file IFR and be there in under 2? Don't you love it when scheduling makes inefficient pairings? If you are like other airline pilots (which it sounds like you are not) then you don't. I don't like inefficient "schedules" of airlines just to go see Grandma.

Any yeah, aviation is expensive. Trust me, I know this. I own an airplane. And I sure as HELL don't want to pay to have the privilege to fly my own airplane when and where I see fit.

Face it, you are outnumbered and obviously can't see past the end of your own nose or you would realize that user fees are the most detrimental thing facing all of aviation at this time.

 

[MQAAord]

I mean you can't be poor and own an airplane in this
country.

My parents are FAR from rich. I mean FAR from rich.

And Dad has a 310.

He's also an A&P IA, so one of the most expensive parts of aircraft ownership (mtx) isn't an issue for him.

So no, you don't have to be rich to own an airplane. You just have to be creative.

 

[Ian_J]

There's plenty of that on both sides of the issue. BTW, I corrected your spelling. I guess you were too upset to differentiate between to and too.

<snip>

I guess the only other option is too nut up and go down and visit the Air Force/ANG/Navy/Army/Coast Guard recruiter.

 

[ppragman]

...

Anyway, it is evident that the mere suggestion of user fees is enough to rattle a LOT of cages. Sorry if the truth hurts, but GA IS a rich man's sport. And if you want free flight training, I guess the only other option is too nut up and go down and visit the Air Force/ANG/Navy/Army/Coast Guard recruiter. That's the decision I made so long ago.

If you aren't brave, strong, tough or good enough to seek that option, that's a YOU problem. Then you're just going to have to scrape together a little more dough and buy your licenses.

For the first bolded item, since you were cruel about "to, two and too", you do realize that the verb "nut up," as you so eloquently put it (seriously dude, are you eleven? who talks like that?) requires the infinitive form "to nut up," in this context, rather than "too," which implies either excess (e.g. too much) or "also." I think you understand.

As for topical and contextual things, ummm, you didn't know what you were doing when you got out of college so you decided to try to join the Navy. If you had had a disqualifying medical condition you'd have been down by Ketchikan tending the submarine nets, or patrolling the high seas as a botswain's mate officer. You lucked into your training.

 

[MQAAord]

Oh snap!

 

[Roger, Roger]

Sorry if I seem unsympathetic to the Anti-fee crowd. Its only because I am.

Sorry if we seem unsympathetic to perpetual union blather. It's only because we are.

 

[MQAAord]

Union blather has nothing to do with user fees.... let's keep it on topic...


But sorry if I seem unsympathetic to the pro-fee crowd. It's only because I am.

 

[Velocipede]

Your way is not necessarily any "better" than anyone else's,

Maybe not better, but way more honorable and certainly more economical.

But GA is there, and you have to deal with it.

Hopefully, with user fees there will be a lot less of it to have to deal with.

Or just don't bid SNA

Frankly, I avoid it like the plague. However, the safety issue involved is way bigger than just me. SNA is plane loads of families going to/from Disneyland. Virtually EVERY NMAC I've experienced has been within 15 nm of SNA. The NMAC exposure at this airport is unacceptable to me as an aviation safety professional. Its only a matter of time before some sightseer, Vtail Dr. killer, Pitts aerobatic wanna be or student pilot takes an Airbus full of kids down with him.

If user fees chase these guys down to Ramona or Carlsbad, I say bring on the fees.

I don't like stupid people on the road with me, but they're there every day when I get in my truck with my kids. I just do my best to worry about myself and driving my own vehicle in the best manner to avoid injury to everyone. It's worked out pretty well all-in-all

Yes, but you aren't operating in an environment uniformly hostile to human life. We are. Every day. Don't forget that the wingtip of a bizjet took down a 737-800 in Brazil and killed everyone on the Boeing. Is that the price you're willing to pay even ONCE so that guys can float around in their bug smashers?

I'm not.

 

[Roger, Roger]

Union blather has nothing to do with user fees.... let's keep it on topic...

Exactly. I don't know what I'm talking about with union issues...he doesn't know anything about GA.

 

[Roger, Roger]

Yes, but you aren't operating in an environment uniformly hostile to human life. We are. Every day. Don't forget that the wingtip of a bizjet took down a 737-800 in Brazil and killed everyone on the Boeing. Is that the price you're willing to pay even ONCE so that guys can float around in their bug smashers?

I'm not.

Not relevant. It was pure random chance that it was a bizjet instead of another airliner that collided with the Boeing. The fault was utter incompetence on the part of Brazilian ATC, and a random TCAS glitch (my understanding). Fate is still the hunter.

 

[MQAAord]

OMG, I just hit the "edit" button instead of "quote" to Velo's post....

And in the process erased everything he wrote.... I'm saying this publicy to acknowledge what I and that it was NOT intentional!

Oh, crikey, how do I undo that!!

 

[jtrain609]

My parents are FAR from rich. I mean FAR from rich.

And Dad has a 310.

He's also an A&P IA, so one of the most expensive parts of aircraft ownership (mtx) isn't an issue for him.

So no, you don't have to be rich to own an airplane. You just have to be creative.

I think you do, actually.

Let's say that's a $150,000 Cessna 310. On a 10 year loan at 5% the monthly payment ALONE is nearly $1,600 a month.

If you consider a house hold that makes a little more than that in a month, it's impossible to own such an aircraft, to say nothing to OPERATE it. In fact, here are some operational numbers:

Operating Costs for Cessna 310

PQ Avg. Fuel (GPH): 22.00 Fuel Costs/Gallon: 2.34 Fuel Costs/Hour: 51.94 Oil Costs per Hour: 2.00 Maintenance Cost/Hour: 49.60 Hourly Engine Reserve: 29.95 Prop T/R Reserve: 6.00 Total Variable Costs/Hour: 139.52 Average Speed (MPH): 175.35 Cost/SM: 0.78 Annual Insurance: 3,075.01 Annual Hangar/Tiedown: 2,840.28 Training: 3,705.95 Total Fixed Costs: 9,626.04 Hours/Year: 146.87 Fixed Cost/Hour: 70.10 Total Variable & Fixed Costs/Year: 30,676.69 Total Costs/Hour: 209.62 Total Cost/SM: 1.18

The cost to operate the thing is more than I make in a year.

 

[MQAAord]

I think you do, actually.

Let's say that's a $150,000 Cessna 310. On a 10 year loan at 5% the monthly payment ALONE is nearly $1,600 a month.

If you consider a house hold that makes a little more than that in a month, it's impossible to own such an aircraft, to say nothing to OPERATE it. In fact, here are some operational numbers:

Operating Costs for Cessna 310

PQ Avg. Fuel (GPH): 22.00 Fuel Costs/Gallon: 2.34 Fuel Costs/Hour: 51.94 Oil Costs per Hour: 2.00 Maintenance Cost/Hour: 49.60 Hourly Engine Reserve: 29.95 Prop T/R Reserve: 6.00 Total Variable Costs/Hour: 139.52 Average Speed (MPH): 175.35 Cost/SM: 0.78 Annual Insurance: 3,075.01 Annual Hangar/Tiedown: 2,840.28 Training: 3,705.95 Total Fixed Costs: 9,626.04 Hours/Year: 146.87 Fixed Cost/Hour: 70.10 Total Variable & Fixed Costs/Year: 30,676.69 Total Costs/Hour: 209.62 Total Cost/SM: 1.18

The cost to operate the thing is more than I make in a year.

John, take out the maintenance costs. Also, the plane he bought cost nothing close to $150k. He's done the work himself. He is not rich, and does NOT spend the amounts you quoted to own his plane.

 

[MQAAord]

Okay, I think I actually can fix it, but it's going to take a few minutes of cutting & pasting....

Yay! I did it! Post #128 is fixed and back up....

Again, I apologize, I hit edit instead of quote and messed it all up, but I managed to put it back together.

Sorry....

 

[Velocipede]

Any yeah, aviation is expensive. Trust me, I know this. I own an airplane. And I sure as HELL don't want to pay to have the privilege to fly my own airplane when and where I see fit.

WOW! Talk about entitlement issues. Here's a news flash for you...The NAS belongs to the PUBLIC. And if the general public thinks you should pay for the privilege to use it, then so be it. That's how it works in America and in all "little d" democracies.

Face it, you are outnumbered and obviously can't see past the end of your own nose

Of course, I'm out numbered here. This isn't a military chat board. I guarantee YOU'D be outnumbered over there. It doesn't make my opinion wrong or yours right. It just makes them different.

or you would realize that user fees are the most detrimental thing facing all of aviation at this time.

I disagree. I think the most important thing facing aviation is the safety issues involved in mixing GA with airliners. Just because it hasn't happened YET doesn't mean it can't or won't happen. If user fees force GA out of the way and it prevents even ONE accident, then they're worth their weight in gold. Unless YOU want to be the one that stands up in front of the press and tries to defend the GA pilot who blundered in front of an airliner.

Don't think it can happen? It already has. In San Diego, a Cessna pilot practicing approaches took down a 727.

Oopsie! :banghead:

If you had had a disqualifying medical condition you'd have been down by Ketchikan tending the submarine nets, or patrolling the high seas as a botswain's mate officer. You lucked into your training.

Well, the "luck" involved having the cojones to go down to the recruiter in the first place. As you pointed out, at any point along the way, I could have been disqualified and might have ended up the BOQ Officer in Adak.

But, that's the military, Pat. No guts, no glory.

Exactly. I don't know what I'm talking about with union issues...he doesn't know anything about GA.

Well, I know enough about GA to know you're dangerous in high density traffic areas. Let's see at SNA alone I've:

1. Dodged a Vtail Bonanza who stooged across the ILS final in broken IMC without a clearance.

2. Taken evasive action around a student pilot in the offshore training area.

3. Taken evasive action around a GA pilot sightseeing along the beach.

4. Aborted a takeoff due to a GA pilot rolling out on the runway in front of me without clearance.

5. Did a missed approach to avoid a Pitts pilot who overshot 19L and strayed into the approach corridor to 19R.

6. Deviated from the noise abatement corridor to avoid an R22 pilot who was lost south of the airport.

And those are just the ones off the top of my head. SNA is the single most dangerous airport on our system and 90% of the threats are posed by GA pilots.

Lets see...who has the most public interest at in the NAS at that point the 155 people on the 737 or ctab and his

I sure as HELL don't want to pay to have the privilege to fly my own airplane when and where I see fit.

attitude? Looks like the vote is 155 to 1 to me.

 

[Velocipede]

OMG, I just hit the "edit" button instead of "quote" to Velo's post....

And in the process erased everything he wrote.... I'm saying this publicy to acknowledge what I and that it was NOT intentional!

Oh, crikey, how do I undo that!!

Man, talk about some tough moderators!

 

[MQAAord]

Maybe not better, but way more honorable and certainly more economical.

Honor is an entirely subjective entity.

Economics? Some would say that the price of a 10-year commitment to the military is too high a price to pay.

Hopefully, with user fees there will be a lot less of it to have to deal with.

Emotional.

Frankly, I avoid it like the plague. However, the safety issue involved is way bigger than just me. SNA is plane loads of families going to/from Disneyland. Virtually EVERY NMAC I've experienced has been within 15 nm of SNA. The NMAC exposure at this airport is unacceptable to me as an aviation safety professional. Its only a matter of time before some sightseer, Vtail Dr. killer, Pitts aerobatic wanna be or student pilot takes an Airbus full of kids down with him.

If user fees chase these guys down to Ramona or Carlsbad, I say bring on the fees.

Again, emotional. How do you feel about the number of fatal accidents overseas, like the F-27 that crashed earlier today, killing all parachuting students onboard? Those are not "bugsmashers", those are airliners.

Yes, but you aren't operating in an environment uniformly hostile to human life. We are. Every day. Don't forget that the wingtip of a bizjet took down a 737-800 in Brazil and killed everyone on the Boeing. Is that the price you're willing to pay even ONCE so that guys can float around in their bug smashers?

I'm not.

Anyone who's driven I-69 in Indy would probably say that it is rather uniformly hostile & unfriendly! The road is a dangerous place, and many more people are killed in auto crashes on America's highways than in airliner/airplane accidents.

 

[MQAAord]

Man, talk about some tough moderators!

Well I did manage to put it back by cutting & pasting and piecing it back together!

Oh man, you should have seen my face when I realized what I'd done.... It looked a little like this:

 

[Velocipede]

That's pretty good, Amber. Accusing ME of being emotional. Just mention user fees and the FLAPs around here go crazy!

 

[darrenf]

That's pretty good, Amber. Accusing ME of being emotional. Just mention user fees and the FLAPs around here go crazy!

FLAPs??