User Fees a good thing?

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I have done some reading on it and it is just a matter of time where this could happen.

Could is the operative word in your post. Don't get your panties in a knot until it does.

Plus, I bet GEG would be on the list for fees and that would probably keep me on the ground!

Or you could go over to Felts where there wouldn't be any fees. So, use Felts or Cd"A and fly VFR and you're good.

User fees...THE HORROR, THE HORROR!
 
User fees = camel's nose in the tent. Just say no.
:yeahthat:


When people flock to the uncontrolled fields to avoid the fees of the controlled airports, who's to say that the government won't impose some sort of fee there too?
 
Thats exactly my point. Only 20-40kts and we were one of the smallest and slowest things that flies in there. Remember a G5 or 777 is also GA if operated under say 91 sub K or something. So not everything in GA is slow so why make GA pay for pay for problems mostly made only by smaller aircraft which easily be Part 135 or 121 as well. It doesn't make any sense.


I wouldn't say "only 20-40 kts." When you've got controllers packing planes in tight and trying to keep 5 miles of separation, that space is gonna evaporate QUICKLY. The only other option is to slow down the guy behind you.....and the guy behind him.....and the guy behind him....

I'm not saying GA is to blame, just calling it how I've seen it.
 
Could is the operative word in your post. Don't get your panties in a knot until it does.

In that case, lets not teach kids to swim because if they drown we might be able to resuscitate them. Why worry about drowning until it happens right?

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
 
Guys, lets all listen to the pilot who has zero hours of GA experience tell us all about what GA should and shouldn't do.
 
It's pretty simple really. You say that you believe user fees would be good for airline pilots. I believe you are wrong. I believe they will only make things worse for all involved. No word insertion required.

No arguement here. You could have easily said it this way the first time around. Instead you decided to post that I have no idea what I am talking about, without even posting your own POV.. learn to talk to people.

And I never said that I believe they WOULD be good for airline pilots. I stated a few optimistic points as to how it MIGHT POTENTIALLY not be bad all round.
 
Along the lines of the adage "if it isn't broken, don't fix it;" my question would be what's broken with the current way we've been doing business ala the NAS etc, that would require implemtenting user fees to fix it?

IMO that's the main question that needs to be applied in order to get an accurate measure of whether this is a good idea or not.
 
Along the lines of the adage "if it isn't broken, don't fix it;" my question would be what's broken with the current way we've been doing business ala the NAS etc, that would require implemtenting user fees to fix it?

IMO that's the main question that needs to be applied in order to get an accurate measure of whether this is a good idea or not.

Your Mom.

That's what.
 
But, if the goal is to reduce the stress on the NAS, user fees are the way to go.

It's not a problem with the NAS. We have the best run system in the world. It is by far the most efficient. There is not a problem with to many airplanes in the sky. When was the last time you saw a 172 at FL360? HMMMM?! Or a Naviaon on short final at SLC? It's more a problem of not enough space on the ground. Think back to the few days after 9/11. How many runways had aircraft parked on them because there simply wasn't enough space on the ground?

Just a few general observation on the everyday life of a flight instructor at multiple airports. I have the ability to work at two different flight schools, in two very different environments. One is a "mom and pop" airport, and the other used to be the busiest GA airport in the world until very recently.

#1: It seems to me, that the majority of airplanes in the GA realm are small piston singles, flying VFR, going into and out of GA airports. i.e. limited to no commercial ops (non 121). And most of them only use ATC for taking off and landing. Seems to me, small GA pilots don't like to talk on the radios, so they don't congest the airways/radio waves. To prove my point, why don't you go on to liveatc and listen to LA center for a few hours. Take notes on GA radio traffic, and airline radio traffic. Tell me who wins that battle, mmmkay.

#2: The small mom and pop airports, have a very small, wooden peg of a leg to stand on, because they don't have the backbone of corporate financing to speak with. They also make up the majority of airports in the US, and 1/100 of the airlines frustrations conjestion.(LAX/LGA/LAS/PHX/IAH/ORD/MIA/ORD/etc.). So putting the blame on GA is like saying the American people were behind the attacks on Pearl Harbor.

#3: Think of all the small companies that make parts for GA aircraft, all of the support services. Also think of the controllers at non-commercial airports, avionics techs, A&P techs, flight school managers, restaurants at small airports, city jobs at small airports, etc. The list goes on and on. It goes into the millions of jobs deep. What are we as a nation right now, 685k people out of work. I think I just low balled that too. Oh wait, here's a good idea, lets install user fees, put more companies out of business, and make that number of unemployed go up exponentially. Lets raise that number into the millions, because the airlines say that GA guys are causing them to bottle neck into DTA and PIT. Sounds like a rational train of thought to me.:sarcasm:

I understand that you are pro-union and ex-military. Good for you. I actually like the fact that you stick up for both of those things, because at the bigger companies, unions are needed, and the military generally turns out good pilots. But some of us got into this career to one day build an airplane, and fly family around in their spare time. User fee's would be the end of that for many people. And like ppragman said, flying would only be for the super rich. The average Joe, who might be a great stick, and awesome CFI, would now be thrown to the side lines, unable to afford to learn a unique skill set, or teach someone with a passion for aviation to fly. The Ab-inito thing may look like it works on paper (kinda like 141), but when the poop hits the fan, whats going to happen to the guy who has 250-500 hrs and is flying your son/daughter around and doesn't have the where with-all to handle a mess because he was "indoctrinated" into aviation because he did well in an interview with------hhhhhhuuuuuuu-------NO FLYING EXPERIENCE------------Tisk, tisk.


Just take a look at peoples opinions of user fees in Europe, Australia, and Japan. How has it really benefited the airlines? Has it benefited their NAS?
 
Well, since you asked...

There is a cultural shift going on in this country. We've seen the results of greed in our banking system, and folks aren't going to continue to put up with it in many facets of life. They're going to latch onto this issue, if it ever becomes public (and it's not, FYI, the only people that care about this are pilots), and they're gonna say that rich pilots are nothing but free riders.

And let's face it, we are. I mean you can't be poor and own an airplane in this country. It simply costs too much to fly already. I mean people think yachts are money pits? Try a Cessna! In this day and age, if you've got the money to fly, you can afford user fee's. If user fee's put you out and make you sell your airplane, you probably couldn't afford it anyway.

This isn't 50 years ago when airplanes were much more affordable to own and operate. Even a little Cessna 150 is gonna run you as much as a BMW 5 series.
 
Well, since you asked...

There is a cultural shift going on in this country. We've seen the results of greed in our banking system, and folks aren't going to continue to put up with it in many facets of life. They're going to latch onto this issue, if it ever becomes public (and it's not, FYI, the only people that care about this are pilots), and they're gonna say that rich pilots are nothing but free riders.

And let's face it, we are. I mean you can't be poor and own an airplane in this country. It simply costs too much to fly already. I mean people think yachts are money pits? Try a Cessna! In this day and age, if you've got the money to fly, you can afford user fee's. If user fee's put you out and make you sell your airplane, you probably couldn't afford it anyway.

This isn't 50 years ago when airplanes were much more affordable to own and operate. Even a little Cessna 150 is gonna run you as much as a BMW 5 series.


????????? Makes no sense to me. 150's can be had for around $25k nicely equiped. Put $5k down, finance for 10 years = cheap. You can have a 150 for less than $500 a month, and use it for more than 15 hrs a month. Don't you remember the AOPA article of airplanes for under $500 a month (it even included a tiedown spot). Yes, they were little, mostly old, and some tired airplanes. But it can be had. And the last time I checked, a 5 series was over $500 a mont in the loan payment, let alone feeding it, and keeping it insured.
 
????????? Makes no sense to me. 150's can be had for around $25k nicely equiped. Put $5k down, finance for 10 years = cheap. You can have a 150 for less than $500 a month, and use it for more than 15 hrs a month. Don't you remember the AOPA article of airplanes for under $500 a month (it even included a tiedown spot). Yes, they were little, mostly old, and some tired airplanes. But it can be had. And the last time I checked, a 5 series was over $500 a mont in the loan payment, let alone feeding it, and keeping it insured.

So your saying the masses can afford $500 a month? :confused:
 
So your saying the masses can afford $500 a month? :confused:

I consider my self one of the "masses." As soon as I am done paying of my truck, yes, I'll be able to afford a $500 a mont airplane cost. And all I do is instruct. Definatly not rich. I also have a 2 1/2 year old son. And his needs come first. And I still have a $500 a month surplus. My wife is not rich either. We are the average middle class americans. But, I do work seven days a week, so I woulden't have much time for an airplane right now.:crazy:
 
No arguement here. You could have easily said it this way the first time around. Instead you decided to post that I have no idea what I am talking about, without even posting your own POV.. learn to talk to people.
Thanks for the advice. I'll get right on that.

And I never said that I believe they WOULD be good for airline pilots. I stated a few optimistic points as to how it MIGHT POTENTIALLY not be bad all round.
Oh, really? What'd ya say we call up Mr Peabody and get him to set the wayback machine to the first post in this thread?
wzgrza said:
Would be bad news for the typical weekend warrior. But for professional pilots I believe this would be a good thing.
So even though you wrote that you think it would be a good thing, you now say that you never said it. Right. Got it. Thanks for clearing that up.
 
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