Protecting us from ourselves...

Did they specifically remove that approach, or the circiling approaches all together, I know they stopped training the IFR circles, so they have been removed from our opspecs
 
It's a damn shame. That was one of the few really fun approaches we get to do, if not the most fun on the Saab. There are pretty much none on the Q, unless you count the PWM harbor visual.
 
Rocketman99 said:
It's a damn shame. That was one of the few really fun approaches we get to do, if not the most fun on the Saab. There are pretty much none on the Q, unless you count the PWM harbor visual.
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I know I have seen you guys at DCA. How about the RV 19 at DCA?
 
as said before the circle to 4l in bos was an amazing approach and i am glad to say that i have done it. im sure it was just a matter of time before something not so good happened.
 
kellwolf said:
Right, but it'll remove it from the ATP. Odds are pretty slim of me flying a CRJ overseas right now anyway. :)
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I didn't know it applied to the ATP. Never saw a cert like that I guess.

You learn something every day.
 
I'm guessing if the ATP is earned in an aircraft with that restriction, then it would carry any restrictions of that type. The checkride does not incorporate circiling manuvers under ifr, so I assume the limitation is on his ATP
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
Kind of dbag for the SKYW van not to wait for you. We fly into the same airport at the same time, and stay at the same hotel as Lynx and we always make sure the van waits, and they do the same even if it is an extra 10 minutes. It's courtesy.
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Way to make an ASSumption. Maybe the van was too small for a second crew, maybe they didn't know the other crew was coming, maybe they didn't know the other crew stayed at the same hotel, maybe the van driver didn't want to wait.
 
Ralgha said:
Way to make an ASSumption. Maybe the van was too small for a second crew, maybe they didn't know the other crew was coming, maybe they didn't know the other crew stayed at the same hotel, maybe the van driver didn't want to wait.
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Possible, and in SKYW defense we stay at a couple (at least one) of the same hotels as they do as well and they've always waited for us also.
 
That's nothing, once we arrived in RDU and NWA was behind us (we heard them on the radio).

We land, call the van, and walk out there. I guess NWA does the same thing, and they appear on the curb around 10 minutes later.

Our van comes, NWA gets in, and says "sorry guys there's no room".

It gets better.

When NWA's van comes (now ours) we find out our keys were in our (the first) van. Makes an 11 hour overnight that much better! Plus it just made us feel like second class citizens.

D1ckheads. But honestly in my experience that's how mainline treats express crews, pretty typical.
 
TUCKnTRUCK said:
I'm guessing if the ATP is earned in an aircraft with that restriction, then it would carry any restrictions of that type. The checkride does not incorporate circiling manuvers under ifr, so I assume the limitation is on his ATP
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Yep. It's listed twice under "limitations" on my cert: once for the ATP and once for the CL-65.
 
We just stopped training the manuver, so we will also carry that limitation unless you are already an ATP, or were brought over in the first year of the program. The ironic thing, is that Q400 FO's are already typed with the IFR circle, If they upgrade in the airplane, their ATP will be limited, but not their type :) Wouldn't that just suck?
 
TUCKnTRUCK said:
We just stopped training the manuver, so we will also carry that limitation unless you are already an ATP, or were brought over in the first year of the program. The ironic thing, is that Q400 FO's are already typed with the IFR circle, If they upgrade in the airplane, their ATP will be limited, but not their type :) Wouldn't that just suck?
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I'd say that would be a good reason to go get your ATP on your own in a piston twin. (if potential international work is what you are after)

And yes its a cool approach for the peeps in the back too (especially in row 1 or 2 with the 'door' open). Rode on a few BigSky flights into BOS doing it.
 
kellwolf said:
Yep. It's listed twice under "limitations" on my cert: once for the ATP and once for the CL-65.
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Very interesting. I'm smarter because of your limitation. That's weird.

TUCKnTRUCK said:
We just stopped training the manuver, so we will also carry that limitation unless you are already an ATP, or were brought over in the first year of the program. The ironic thing, is that Q400 FO's are already typed with the IFR circle, If they upgrade in the airplane, their ATP will be limited, but not their type :) Wouldn't that just suck?
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It might drag along if the Q FOs have a PIC type. I had a type on my commercial, and it got "upgraded" when I got an ATP type.

I'm currently the owner of 2 VMC circle restrictions, but I was able to avoid them on any of the others since I did the circle training at CHQ before they decided that circling a jet is a dumb idea (which I agree with).
 
The actual type won't change, so they will be authorized to cirlce the Q in a non ATP duty.. but they will not perform the circle to ATP standards on their ATP ride, I've got a feeling the FAA won't let them do it from the left seat suddenly, but I would hope that it would transfer over... or that they forget to add it as an oversight. It's pretty stupid if you ask me.

Not that they should ever need it, but, It helps with the understanding and performance of the aircraft... and could be valuable in an emergency... I would rather see it trained, but prohibited via opspecs.
 
TUCKnTRUCK said:
The actual type won't change, so they will be authorized to cirlce the Q in a non ATP duty.. but they will not perform the circle to ATP standards on their ATP ride, I've got a feeling the FAA won't let them do it from the left seat suddenly, but I would hope that it would transfer over... or that they forget to add it as an oversight. It's pretty stupid if you ask me.

Not that they should ever need it, but, It helps with the understanding and performance of the aircraft... and could be valuable in an emergency... I would rather see it trained, but prohibited via opspecs.
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...but, if the type is not a SIC type, they already demonstrated it to ATP stds, thus passing the type. Just like my commercial type was given ATP privileges when I took an ATP/type ride in another plane.

Don't forget this thread when one of them slides over...
 
I once had my old DO tell me when I flew 135 cargo that circling approaches is where professional pilots are at the greatest risk for an accident. Perhaps this is true, I don't have any data to support a conclusion one way or the other. I will say that circling approaches, if done correctly aren't any more dangerous than anything else we do on a routine basis.
There is a big difference between a charted visual flight procedure and a true circling approach, and executing them in IMC conditions right at circling minimums is a real test of piloting skills, situational and positional awareness. Perhaps the FAA feels that our piloting "muscles" are becoming so atrophied that we don't really carry the circle to land in our pilot toolbox anymore.
My earlier, self-described disgust with the FAA and industry is reacting vs. being proactive in preventing accidents. This is typical, and isn't alien to the way the military does it's business too. I don't have a bad attitude, but I do have a very cynical viewpoint of the state of the aviation in the United States today. I come from an Air Force family, and my Dad was a career officer and combat pilot in WWII and Korea. I don't know how to do a whole lot of anything very well (at least I'd like to think so) except be in aviation. I've done a number of different things ranging from operating the lav cart as a 19-year old rampie, flew as a military flight crewmember and sat in both seats of regional turboprops in 121. Most days I enjoy it when I am in the cockpit flying, but dreading going to work is becoming a more common emotion. Sadly, it has nothing to do with the aviating, I live for the chance to test my skill against mother nature. I despair of doing battle with the FAA, managment, Station personnel ad nauseum.
What will it take to fix all this? Perhaps a rededication to doing the job correctly, the first time out. Accepting nothing short of professionalism irregardless of the nonsense we deal with day in and day out. Placing all your wants, needs and desires secondary to getting the job done when you walk out to the airplane. It is an awesome thing to fly...But, it comes with the reality of danger lurking everywhere we turn. Well, nobody asked my opinion, but I thought I might throw it out there for y'all to reflect upon the thoughts of someone involved in aviation for over 30 years.

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead
 
Polar742 said:
...but, if the type is not a SIC type, they already demonstrated it to ATP stds, thus passing the type. Just like my commercial type was given ATP privileges when I took an ATP/type ride in another plane.

Don't forget this thread when one of them slides over...
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The FO checkride as I recall, only holds them to commercial pts... I haven't bothered to look to see if it is an SIC type, but I have a feeling it's just a type cert. for the DH8, They are also not required all the manuvers of the ATP ride on their type.

It will prob. be interesting to watch as they try to figure it out :)
 
TUCKnTRUCK said:
The FO checkride as I recall, only holds them to commercial pts... I haven't bothered to look to see if it is an SIC type, but I have a feeling it's just a type cert. for the DH8, They are also not required all the manuvers of the ATP ride on their type.

It will prob. be interesting to watch as they try to figure it out :)
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If it is a PIC type, it is to ATP standards. Same PTS even.

Technically, a PC is to ATP standards as well, however certain tasks which are CA specific are deleted. Then a piece of paper is sent and viola, an SIC type. The key is that tasks are deleted, and you don't satisfy the type rating requirements.

I'll take what you said as they only have a SIC rating, as maneuvers are deleted.

BE19 pilot,

I fully understand, except an aviation lineage - I'm the first, where you're coming from. "They" whine about you not getting out on time, yet it seems to be stripping tools you can use to your advantage away.

The "fun", if you will, begins when you have such mastery of the GOM/FOM (or whatever they call it), the opspecs and your SOP/POH that your game is figuring out how to maneuver within all the constraints given to get your job done in impossible circumstances. And if you're not able, then when they call asking about a delay, divert, writeup, blah blah blah, you quote their rules and say that's why you did that. They quit calling after you do that a couple times. :D

Have fun out there, and be safe.
 
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