Sallie Mae not going to loan for aviation career training

[Sprint100]

Re: Sallie Mae not going to loan for aviation career trainin

Perhaps the problem is the fact that home ownership and professional training should not be consider a dream.

:yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat:I was listening to John and Ken down here and I'm with them when they say we should bury the term "American Dream". Somehow it got misconstrued to mean my American Entitlement.

 

[juan valdez]

Re: Sallie Mae not going to loan for aviation career trainin

This will just make everyone fall into what Velo wants anyway. We all should go to the military and become military pilots. Then after spending 10 years in the military essentially paying back that loan, you can get out and pursue your dream of flying for xyz airline or whatever it is you want to do.

Hopefully this just affects the academies on a large scale andnot so much the smaller fbo guys. If the bad economy wasn't enough of a reason not to take out a huge loan then hopefully this will seal the deal and people will start to realize what a mistake a large loan is.

 

[surreal1221]

Re: Sallie Mae not going to loan for aviation career trainin

:yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat:I was listening to John and Ken down here and I'm with them when they say we should bury the term "American Dream". Somehow it got misconstrued to mean my American Entitlement.

Bingo.

People don't like it, but I don't really care what they don't like.

Some things just were not meant to be, and we shouldn't be fudging the numbers and information on loan applications to make the "dream" a reality. Only to see the reality come back and bite them in the arse.

Honestly though, I hate it. I wish everyone the best of luck in chasing down their "dreams." But not at the overall expense of the health of our financial markets.

People need to realize that you can have your cake and eat it too, it just might mean taking a little bit longer to achieve the cake. And, I'd be willing to bet, that if they take their damn time they might actually learn how to manage some money. Who'da'thunk it?

This will just make everyone fall into what Velo wants anyway. We all should go to the military and become military pilots. Then after spending 10 years in the military essentially paying back that loan, you can get out and pursue your dream of flying for xyz airline or whatever it is you want to do.

Hopefully this just affects the academies on a large scale andnot so much the smaller fbo guys. If the bad economy wasn't enough of a reason not to take out a huge loan then hopefully this will seal the deal and people will start to realize what a mistake a large loan is.

I must have missed this.

Where did Velo say everyone should join the military, fly for the military, and then come out?

Although, there are many benefits to public service. One of which is money for education. Just a thought. And, it only requires four years.

Otherwise, yes, hopefully people will realize that large loans are not going to help you out. Regrettably, I don't have enough faith in individual's rational judgment. Just walk around any college campus the first week of a new fall semester. Banks and credit card companies out handing mythical little plastic thingys with "money" on them. High school graduates, largely, lack the financial education to realize the disasters that can come from credit cards and large loans. They end up spending four years in a higher education institution, living off of federal subsidized loans, and then they want to get another huge ass loan from SLM or someone to pay for flight training that is realistically valued around the 10-15 grand range.

*Bonk* Shouda had a V8!

 

[Goonie]

Re: Sallie Mae not going to loan for aviation career trainin

Perhaps the problem is the fact that home ownership and professional training should not be consider a dream.

If you're dumb enough to "fall" for the dream, and thus fall for the marketing gimmicks, you have received what you desired.

Sucks, but why are we going to continue to the false propping up of ridiculous hopes and dreams when reality tells us otherwise?

That makes twice today that I have to do this Surreal.....:yeahthat:

 

[jspeed87]

Re: Sallie Mae not going to loan for aviation career trainin

damn I feel so heartbroken. I just recently applied thru sallie mae. Not good news.

 

[surreal1221]

Re: Sallie Mae not going to loan for aviation career trainin

That makes twice today that I have to do this Surreal.....:yeahthat:

See, I'm not that bad.

Now though, if you see something that you disagree with, just let a white guy know. I won't bite. I might bitch and complain. . .but. . .

Where was the first incident? edit: I found it.

 

[SeanD]

Re: Sallie Mae not going to loan for aviation career trainin

The school I work for uses Pilot Financing. I dont know what issues anyone has had or if we even have a current student using financial aid right now.

 

[IslandFlyer]

Re: Sallie Mae not going to loan for aviation career trainin

Cutting out flight training loans altogether probably isn't the best idea. Putting some type of cap on the loan amount would be a good alternative. I mean if someone saves up 5k for their PPL and then wants to borrow the other 5 to finish it up, then that shouldn't be a problem.

I guess if they only needed/wanted to borrow 5k they could always put it on a CC or tke out a personal loan. I'm not totally against financing a portion of the training, but financing all of it for one of the large schools near the 6 digit range should have been nixed a while ago.

People with the 'I got's mine' attitude shouldn't frown on those who are/have considered financing part of their training. I'm sure a large majority of people have financed some portion of their training. I know there are some that didn't finance any of their training, and kudos to them. But I think if SLM doesn't finance ANY portion of the training (be it 5 or 10k), then CFI's are going to lose work.

I'm sure people will find other ways to finance, as someone mentioned another lender that was still offereing training loans. Let's just hope they keep the loan amounts down to a reasonable number.

 

[surreal1221]

Re: Sallie Mae not going to loan for aviation career trainin

It is my understanding (from a marketing source within a larger domestic flight school) that SLM has been placing 30k, then 20k, then 10k caps on various career training loans.

So, they've been doing that for around 2 to 3 years now. Perhaps they finally realized that the increasing defaults were just too much and that they were not going to take any more risk.

 

[SeanD]

Re: Sallie Mae not going to loan for aviation career trainin

Doesnt AOPA have some sort of finance program?

 

[Barty]

Re: Sallie Mae not going to loan for aviation career trainin

Yes, prices will have to be more competitive. You will also see far fewer new to newer aircraft on the flight line. The days of training in a 152 for your PPL are returning. That really isn't such a bad thing.

Amen. I miss having something cheap available for a day when I just want to go up and enjoy flying for an hour or two.

It'd also be nice to be able to rent a basic six pack 172 again. As opposed to some overpriced 172 with G1000 and a new interior.

I don't know what they're renting them for these days, but Sky's over at CCO has a couple of 172Ns available. If John Hickman is still running the show over there I don't know if I'd want to give him any of my money or not though. He has/had a bit of an ego problem when I was flying out of there.

 

[surreal1221]

Re: Sallie Mae not going to loan for aviation career trainin

I don't know what they're renting them for these days, but Sky's over at CCO has a couple of 172Ns available. If John Hickman is still running the show over there I don't know if I'd want to give him any of my money or not though. He has/had a bit of an ego problem when I was flying out of there.

Oh yeah. . .I've a little bit of experience with John. I also don't plan on giving Sky's any money.

 

[Barty]

Re: Sallie Mae not going to loan for aviation career trainin

Cutting out flight training loans altogether probably isn't the best idea. Putting some type of cap on the loan amount would be a good alternative. I mean if someone saves up 5k for their PPL and then wants to borrow the other 5 to finish it up, then that shouldn't be a problem.

It is absolutely ridiculous that it should cost someone $10k to get a PPL. When I heard how much my cousin's wife paid to get hers, I almost fainted.

Of course I guess that's what you get when the schools think they've got to have new, shiny, $100/hr 2 seat aircraft on the line instead of the $50/hr 150s I trained in.

 

[Murdoughnut]

Re: Sallie Mae not going to loan for aviation career trainin

Yes, prices will have to be more competitive. You will also see far fewer new to newer aircraft on the flight line. The days of training in a 152 for your PPL are returning. That really isn't such a bad thing.

That's my thing really. For many years I've had a difficult time understanding why flight schools were investing in brand new, glass panel aircraft. $144+ an hour poses a much larger barrier to entry than $90 an hour. I think people got wide eyed with the technology, and were no longer interested in the MX required to maintain a fleet of older a/c.

I recently just re-purchased my ownership share in the 172 I had sold a few months back. When I started looking at FBO's to rent with, few had older single engine aircraft. The few that did have older 172s or Warriors were charging over $100 an hour for them. In the end, it's just as cost effective for me to fly my beautiful 1981 172 that I know is well maintained, and flown within the envelope.

I said years ago that Cessna needed to put out an inexpensive trainer with steam gauges and little in the way of "extras". Something along the lines of a 152, but with a bit more power. They've sort of done that with the light-sport I guess, but are flight schools incorporating these a/c?

 

[surreal1221]

Re: Sallie Mae not going to loan for aviation career trainin

On that note, for my PPL, I rented a 1969 172 (K model?) for $80 wet. That was 3-4 years ago. Throw on $25 an hour for my instructor, who saw all of that, none of it was given to the school, $105 an hour for a 172 was absolutely amazing.

 

[Douglas]

Re: Sallie Mae not going to loan for aviation career trainin

Throw on $25 an hour for my instructor, who saw all of that, none of it was given to the school, $105 an hour for a 172 was absolutely amazing.

(I'm just complaining here)... I did a rental check out with a captain for PSA, who said in the 70s he was a flight instructor and made $17/hour at some academy. It was 2008 and I was still making $17/hour also.

(complaint over.)

 

[Barty]

Re: Sallie Mae not going to loan for aviation career trainin

Oh yeah. . .I've a little bit of experience with John. I also don't plane on giving Sky's any money.

Well, if you don't mind the drive up to Kennesaw, the place I rent from has a couple of P models for $99 if you join the club and put down $250 to get the pre-pay rate.

It is really a shame what he did over there though. They used to have 7-8 aircraft and are down to 3 now I think. He decided to "expand" the club down at Roosevelt Memorial, rented out about half of the lower level of the FBO in anticipation of building it into a flight school like PFC, and bought that Travel Air. The "expansion" bombed (who would have guessed that?!), and he raised the rental rates and club dues to pay for everything else.

About the only good thing I could say about that place was that when I started my instrument rating, since they were still operating under the guise of a non-profit, the instructor rate was pretty low ($18/hr I think?) with most of it going to the instructor. I had a bit of sticker shock when I was looking around for my BFR last year.

 

[surreal1221]

Re: Sallie Mae not going to loan for aviation career trainin

Yup. My experiences were from many years ago. Won't get into it, but I try to sway people from sending him any money as well.

It'll be a great day when the club fully bombs away and then perhaps the FBO will actually make the investment in rental aircraft as opposed to his monopoly on the "club."

 

[killbilly]

Re: Sallie Mae not going to loan for aviation career trainin

By taking advantage of I mean using the emotion/dream of a home or a profession to sign for a loan that has very irresponsible payback terms. That is just stupid for the borrower and the lender. For most students they haven't had to juggle "real" money or "real" budgets, so how in the world do you expect them to come out of the gate handling a $80K or more loan making 20 grand a year if they even have a job afterwards.

Honestly, I don't. But no one ever went broke underestimating the stupidity of the public (notice I did not say American - this has been going on for centuries) and their willingness to mortgage a future for immediate payoff now. But since the information is right there, and right in front of a borrower, and lenders are required by law to disclose what can and likely will happen, I cannot villify the lender. No one made a student take out the 80K loan. Further, aviation is one of the few professions where the time-pay scale is pretty well documented. It's not like getting a EE degree from MIT and having no idea where you'll end up or how much you'll be making.

The writing is on the wall well ahead of time. If you STILL get into a loan situation that you cannot pay back or that you have ill-planned for, you will learn some hard lessons. I have done so, though not to that extreme. When it comes to financing, I just say no.

That said, I might HAVE to finance a purchase in the near future, and am trying to figure out how NOT to. But if I do it, it will be with full disclosure and understanding of what I'm getting into.

Perhaps the problem is the fact that home ownership and professional training should not be consider a dream.

Cynical though this is, I happen to agree. I heard recently about an article that stipulated that home ownership is no longer the wise idea that it used to be. While the tax breaks are nice, more people are knowledge workers these days who change jobs every 5-7 years, and a 30-year commitment to a home may not be the best idea. 30-40 years ago there was more stability, but not anymore. The article further stipulated that flexibility was of more importance than it was then. Long term home ownership doesn't always allow that flexibility.

I'd like to find the exact article, if only because it anecdotally echoes my own experiences of late.

 

[Murdoughnut]

Re: Sallie Mae not going to loan for aviation career trainin

Home ownership isn't a dream - not for those of us who spend within our means and save. It should be a dream for those who cannot sacrifice and work towards it.