Complex Endorsement Training Time

Wing_96

Wing_96

Well-Known Member
How many hours of training do you typically spend giving someone a complex endorsement?

I have a student getting his complex endorsement in an Arrow, but he wants to buy a Cessna RG. In my opinion, it seems like he's just going through the motions so he can fill a checkbox (saying that he has a complex endorsement) for his own personal insurance requirements for when he buys the Cessna.
 
Wing_96 said:
How many hours of training do you typically spend giving someone a complex endorsement?

I have a student getting his complex endorsement in an Arrow, but he wants to buy a Cessna RG. In my opinion, it seems like he's just going through the motions so he can fill a checkbox (saying that he has a complex endorsement) for his own personal insurance requirements for when he buys the Cessna.
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It varies

I have probably had 2 or 3 guys that I felt good about signing after one flight, some I told to look into truck driving. I would say 4-5 hours is a good average, but it all depends on them.
 
Wing_96 said:
In my opinion, it seems like he's just going through the motions so he can fill a checkbox (saying that he has a complex endorsement) for his own personal insurance requirements for when he buys the Cessna.
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That's exactly what he's doing. Sign him off when he's ready.
 
Wing_96 said:
How many hours of training do you typically spend giving someone a complex endorsement?

I have a student getting his complex endorsement in an Arrow, but he wants to buy a Cessna RG. In my opinion, it seems like he's just going through the motions so he can fill a checkbox (saying that he has a complex endorsement) for his own personal insurance requirements for when he buys the Cessna.
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What do you mean by "going through the motions?"

Are you saying that he's not really learning the stuff, or that he's already learned it and is continuing to fly to build his retract time?
 
When I gave complex endorsements in a college flight program, I never signed anyone off with less than 6 hours flight time with a minimum of 30 takeoffs and landings.

The average transitioning pilot in those cases was coming in to the Arrow with all Cessna 152 time up to that point in their training. So there are a lot of differences to go over in those cases...high wing/low wing, twice as much power, fuel injected engine, different fuel system, retractable gear, much higher gross weight, an extra 40 knots of cruise speed, etc.

Usually we'd do about 3 hours of air work with about 3 hours of touch and goes. Then, since our insurance required them to have 8 hours before flying solo, I'd usually take a cross country, do some night landings, shoot some approaches, or something like that with them to get them the 2 more hours they'd need to solo...and honestly, those two hours were never wasted burning holes in the sky.

Remember, it takes the average person 8 times of doing a task *correctly* to learn it for good. Otherwise they don't retain it very well. Extending the gear is not something that can be messed up on even once. Before signing anyone off, they had to do at least 10 landings in a row without me having to remind them of anything related to the gear.

I can't imagine a person having a very deep understanding of constant speed props, emergency procedures, normal procedures, etc. after only one or two flights, unless they were coming from a similar airframe (Cherokee Dakota to an Arrow, or 182 to 182RG for example).
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
What do you mean by "going through the motions?"

Are you saying that he's not really learning the stuff, or that he's already learned it and is continuing to fly to build his retract time?
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I say "going through the motions" because he knows that he's going to buy a Cessna, and he knows the gear and flaps work differently in the Cessna than the Arrow that we're flying.

Normally, my flight school would require 10 hours of dual and the student would get their endorsement at the end of the 10 hours. He doesn't want to spend 10 hours of training time in a plane he can't fly solo (not enough TT for insurance co.), just to get his endorsement, and I understand that. I can understand why he wouldn't necessarily want to learn all about an Arrow, when he knows he's going to be flying a Cessna. I'm not really sure why he's getting his complex in the Arrow in the first place. I told him that it would be better (maybe I should say more applicable) if he learned from someone that had a Cessna RG, but he didn't seem interested. I also tried to explain to him that even with a complex endorsement, his insurance company is probably going to require him to fly with an instructor in his own plane because of his low TT.

I think he is learning about the systems in the Arrow to a certain extent, it just seems like he wants to hurry up and get through this so he can move on.
 
Wing_96 said:
I say "going through the motions" because he knows that he's going to buy a Cessna, and he knows the gear and flaps work differently in the Cessna than the Arrow that we're flying.
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So? I really don't see a problem with that. I don't see doing complex training in an Arrow being about learning to fly an Arrow. I see it about developing a knowledge, skill and procedure set that is transferable to all complex aircraft.

At least that's what I hope my transition students get out of it, and I've actually recommended to people that they train in what's available as a stepping stone to what they want.

Now, if he's not learning anything and just taking up space in the airplane, then I see a problem
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
So? I really don't see a problem with that. I don't see doing complex training in an Arrow being about learning to fly an Arrow. I see it about developing a knowledge, skill and procedure set that is transferable to all complex aircraft.
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I absolutely want him to leave with a skill set and procedure set that will be transferable. That's why I made the post in the first place.

I think doing complex training in an Arrow should include learning the systems of the Arrow, so I would argue that, to a certain extent, it is about learning to fly an Arrow.
 
Do a written quiz to CYA. Then distract him/her in the pattern as much as possible to see if he/she remembers the checklists. All the while somehow manage to pull the circut breaker to keep the pump on the gear from running(make sure he/she dosen't see this). Make sure to see if they just pull the gear lever, or actually verify that the gear is down and locked. I can't tell you how many times I have had to take the controls at 200ft to prevent a gear up/not down and locked landing. Like someone said, he may just be "goin through the motions, whcih will be detrimental to your certs.
 
Wing_96 said:
I think doing complex training in an Arrow should include learning the systems of the Arrow,
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Of course it should. Doing simple training or a checkout in a Archer should include learning the systems of an Archer also.

But like most training, it's not about the rote; it's more about the correlation. Remember that, as far as the FAA is concerned, after you give that endorsement in a Cutlass, the pilot is qualified to fly any complex single with an engine of 200 HP or less (good sense and insurance requirements may vary).

That's my point and why I didn't understand the "going through the motions" comment.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
So? I really don't see a problem with that. I don't see doing complex training in an Arrow being about learning to fly an Arrow. I see it about developing a knowledge, skill and procedure set that is transferable to all complex aircraft.

At least that's what I hope my transition students get out of it, and I've actually recommended to people that they train in what's available as a stepping stone to what they want.

Now, if he's not learning anything and just taking up space in the airplane, then I see a problem
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To say every student needs 10 hours for an endorsment is incorrect. That is a "school rule" to CYA for insurance purposes. He has no plans to fly the arrow after his endorsment from what you say. That means you can give him his endorsment whenever you think he has mastered the little up/down handle and the little prop handle.
I went from a C-150 to a mooney. I had my endorsement inside of ten hours! If/when he is capable and safe to fly the plane, sign him off. If he is a smart man when he buys his cessna he will hire you or another cfi who has experience in that type of plane and retrain in THAT plane!
 
mooneyguy said:
To say every student needs 10 hours for an endorsment is incorrect.
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There are two types of GA pilots, those who have landed gear and those who will.

An endorsement at my school is a non event because our insurance says that they need 15 hours time in type (182RG).
At my last school, I always said 10 hours. If they get if before then great; it is better to say 10 hours and do it in 8. They really hate it when you say 8 and do it in 10.

Just because the student can physically go through the motions, it doesn't mean that it is ingrained in his thought process.
Our 182 has been gear-up twice. The complex endorsement shouldn't be taken lightly.
 
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