Hazard to ILS to runway 23 in BUF - Safety Alert 2009-1

Same here: if I'm ever following the glideslope well left (or right) of the localizer, it means I'm visual and probably hand flying. This happens in BUF when we're visual to 23, since we're coming from the southeast as well.

I've never experienced a pitch up in the Dash, but maybe we're just moving too slowly :rolleyes:
 
MikeD said:
Weird.

In the 117..the only plane I've flown with A/P approach modes....I'd select a "LOC" mode to capture the Localizer, and don't select the "ILS" mode for the GS until gear down (since the GS antenna is inside the nose gear door, and the wheels come down at GSI. Still, if selected early, the plane will not climb to capture a GS initially, but will remain at alt until the command bar passes level, then once "captured", will follow it.
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I was just at the Air Force Museum yesterday and was wandering around the 117 they had and saw the antenna down there and was wondering about that. Interesting. The CRJ logic SHOULD not allow for a GS capture until the LOC is captured. Normally it does work that way, however some times the system will "capture" the localizer when it is still 2 dots off and then just parallel the course in. Also, sometimes once you have captured both the LOC and GS, on some approaches the GS will drop and come back up (or jump up and come back down). In theory the flight director SHOULD damp out these variations but it's pretty gung ho about tracking the GS diamond and will follow it pretty closely.

EDUC8-or said:
Anybody ever shoot the ILS to 34 in AVL???
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God I hate that approach. It really should be notamed out of service until they fix the problems with it.

zmiller4 said:
I've seen the CRJ pitch up as well in one of those situations where the FMA claims it's captured the localizer (although we were still pretty far off course). It wasn't too dramatic, although we'd ballooned almost 150' by the time the capt clicked off the autopilot and leveled off. It was sort of spooky.
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Eh, that's what I was talking about before. The quasi capture of the LOC.

The other problem with the CRJ flight director (and maybe the Q too for all I know) is that when you are in white needles (RNAV mode) it accounts for the wind drift. As soon as you go into green needles (short range nav so VOR or LOC) it completly dumps any wind data it had and turns all the way to the course and then rocks back and forth for a while to figure out wind drift. It's REALLY annoying.
 
BobDDuck said:
...it completly dumps any wind data it had and turns all the way to the course and then rocks back and forth for a while to figure out wind drift. It's REALLY annoying.
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Long finals suck in it too...like the arrivals to the ILS's in LAX, or in ORD when they have you intercept the loc 25mi out. The thing dances down the localizer trying to figure out the winds while the passengers wonder if we're drunk.
 
I'm going to sound incredibly lazy by saying this, but the CRJ was not designed to be hand flown in straight and level flight. In all honesty, the autopilot, even if it is dancing back and forth, 95% of the time will do a much better job of keeping the airplane stable than somebody hand flying can.

EDIT: Doh... you deleted your post!
 
Ian J said:
No NOTAMs on this and can't find this message on the internet.

What's your source CTFlyer?
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Southwest Airlines is where it came from.

Safety Alert 2009-01 - February 18, 2009


There is a potentially significant hazard concerning the ILS to runway 23 in BUF.

Information has been received indicating it is possible to obtain a significant nose pitch up, in some cases as much as 30 degrees, if the glide slope is allowed to capture before established on centerline. Pilots who are preparing to configure and land have the potential to experience abrupt pitch up, slow airspeed, and approach to stall if conditions present themselves in a certain manner.

This effect is the result of an earthen obstruction close enough to the ILS to affect the integrity of the glide slope signal. This has resulted in the issuance of an advisory given on ATIS which states that "the ILS Glide Slope for runway 23 is unusable beyond 5 degrees right of course." When attempting to intercept the runway 23 ILS from right traffic, the ILS glide slope indication may read full deflection down. Just prior to intercept it may then move up in such as manner as to enable approach mode to capture in such a way as to result in a nose up pitch and loss of airspeed. Southwest Airlines has issued a notice reading: "Until further notice, when executing the KBUF ILS/LOC Runway 23, DO NOT select Approach Mode until established on the localizer inbound."

This issue is being addressed on several levels in an attempt to address procedures, facilities, and communication regarding this matter. If you experience any issues related to this, please file an ASAP form and or call SWAPA Safety at SWAPA toll free 800-969-7972.
 
BobDDuck said:
That's not what he was talking about.
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I'll man up and repost the basics of what I deleted.

Why wouldn't you kick off the autopilot and hand fly the airplane if it was doing something that would give the pax the impression that you were drunk? With all due respect to you Mr Duck, I'd be willing to put money down that if CRJ drivers would spend more time honing their hand flying skills and getting the feel of the aircraft, the complaints about the handling of the aircraft would be laid to rest. Afterall, the yoke is the primary method of flying the airplane.

I fly an airplane with an outstanding autopilot, but I still practice the art of hand flying as much as possible. I will admit, however, that task saturation sometimes dictates that George is the best suited option to point the airplane in the right direction.
 
BobDDuck said:
The other problem with the CRJ flight director (and maybe the Q too for all I know) is that when you are in white needles (RNAV mode) it accounts for the wind drift. As soon as you go into green needles (short range nav so VOR or LOC) it completly dumps any wind data it had and turns all the way to the course and then rocks back and forth for a while to figure out wind drift. It's REALLY annoying.
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While the metro doesn't have that type of sophistication, it has the same issues. That back and forward correction while it's trying to get itself established is enough to frustrate me. I usually end up clicking the autopilot off and hand flying the approach.
 
TFaudree_ERAU said:
With all due respect to you Mr Duck, I'd be willing to put money down that if CRJ drivers would spend more time honing their hand flying skills and getting the feel of the aircraft, the complaints about the handling of the aircraft would be laid to rest. Afterall, the yoke is the primary method of flying the airplane.
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I dunno. Do you have any CRJ time? Out of all the types of airplanes I've flown (and arguable, the number is less than 10 and consists of only 3 types of turbine aircraft) the CRJ is by far the worst handling when hand flying in steady state flight. It could very well be just me (and I say that with absolutely no sarcasm) as I am not the best stick and rudder pilot out there, but the CRJ will not trim out and requires constant pitch adjustments by either the yoke or a trim system that has no tactile feedback.

And thanks for reposting what you did. There was nothing wrong in saying it.
 
I think for the most part the CRJ is fairly stable, but I also think there's a time to hand fly and a time to put things on the AP. It's good to get out there and hand fly so you're comfortable if George stops doing his job correctly, but there are other times when you're task saturated it's best to leave the AP on.

I think shooting an approach to minimums in IMC is not the time to practice your hand flying skills. I've also see guys in the sim totally pooch a V1 cut because they were trying to hand fly for "practice". There are lots of callouts and procedures to be done when an engine poops the bed at V1, and it's a whole lot easier to perform them correctly while you're monitoring what the AP instead of focusing hard on flying. If George starts to act up, simply click him off and then hand fly.

As far as the ILS to 34 in AVL there are some pretty bad oscillations on the GS anywhere from 1-6 miles out. I've seen it so bad that the GS goes full scale. It's interesting in IMC when the tower is closed.
 
EDUC8-or said:
As far as the ILS to 34 in AVL there are some pretty bad oscillations on the GS anywhere from 1-6 miles out. I've seen it so bad that the GS goes full scale. It's interesting in IMC when the tower is closed.
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Being a PPL student I obviously don't have any experience with the ILS to 34, but I hadn't heard about this before today. What do you mean by oscillations?
 
TFaudree_ERAU said:
Why wouldn't you kick off the autopilot and hand fly the airplane if it was doing something that would give the pax the impression that you were drunk?
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I guess this is partially directed at me. You answered your own question:

I will admit, however, that task saturation sometimes dictates that George is the best suited option to point the airplane in the right direction.
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On nice days, there's no problem with hand flying approaches into a major hub. If the weather isn't great, there's a whole lot going on. The pilot monitoring at my company is responsible for *all* flight control panel inputs while the airplane is being hand flown--altitudes, headings, airspeeds, which mode for the FD, sequencing the FMS--and that can be a bit of a handful at a busy airport.

With all due respect to you Mr Duck, I'd be willing to put money down that if CRJ drivers would spend more time honing their hand flying skills and getting the feel of the aircraft, the complaints about the handling of the aircraft would be laid to rest. Afterall, the yoke is the primary method of flying the airplane.
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I try to hand fly when it's appropriate. We're required to have the autopilot on above FL200, but on short flights out of ORD I'll hand fly the whole leg. It's not the most stable airplane out there--if you trim it out, look away to change charts, and look back 10sec later there's a decent chance the airplane won't be precisely straight and level. But I know it's fun to bag on "CRJ Drivers" ;).
 
Fair enough. I completely understand where you're coming from, both of you.

zmiller, I was referring mostly to an approach on which the autopilot is searching aimlessly for the localizer. I have never had the pleasure of the 100 mile straight in final to LAX, but most other places, when I'm capturing the LOC, the PNF has already completed all but the last items on the before landing checklist. I don't think his workload is high enough at that point to have to debate over kicking off the autopilot and increasing his workload versus keeping it on and making the people in the back woozie.

I also have the luxury of flying with the same three pilots time and time again, all of whom have logged over 15,000+ hours. Needless to say, with that type of experience and familiarity, they have the checklist done almost before the last syllable of "before landing checklist" leaves my lips. In your case(s), I'm sure you (121) guys encounter co-pilots that couldn't punch their way out of a wet paper bag.

zmiller4 said:
But I know it's fun to bag on "CRJ Drivers" ;).
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Its not a CRJ driver thing. It was just that Bob mentioned that the CRJ was inherently unstable. Autopilot reliance could occur in any aircraft equipped with such devices.

On the other end of the spectrum, we could talk about the guys that hand fly everything, not by preference, but rather fear or lack of understanding the autopilot. They don't know how to use it for anything other than straight and level in the cruise phase. FLCH and VNAV might as well be a study in ancient Mesopotamian architecture for some poor souls I've encountered.
 
TFaudree_ERAU said:
Its not a CRJ driver thing. It was just that Bob mentioned that the CRJ was inherently unstable. Autopilot reliance could occur in any aircraft equipped with such devices.
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I agree, but I definitely agree with BobDDuck that the CRJ (200 at least) is not the easiest and smoothest airplane to hand fly. I guess I'd say it can be done without much difficulty, but requires constant adjustments. We do have a lot of pilots who, when new to the airplane, leave the autopilot on way too long on visual approaches. They get on you for that on IOE.
 
DeltaAVL said:
Being a PPL student I obviously don't have any experience with the ILS to 34, but I hadn't heard about this before today. What do you mean by oscillations?
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Instead of providing a nice smooth 3 degree glideslope it oscillates up and down, if you leave the AP on it will pitch up and down quite a bit because it's attempting to follow the glideslope.
 
TFaudree_ERAU said:
Its not a CRJ driver thing. It was just that Bob mentioned that the CRJ was inherently unstable.
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My experience in the CRJ is brief, but I went there from a 1900. I think the problem is two-fold:
1) Trying to trim the plane is like trying to perform surgery with a chainsaw. I had a hard time trying to make fine (as in not coarse) corrections because of the switch system. Gimme a wheel, or 3.
2) All those people running to and from the lav make it more challenging. No FA, no lav -- keep everybody in their seats.
 
maybe its just me but I never thought the CRJ was all that difficult to handfly. as for the CRJ autopilot, there were many many times I had to say "ok, enough" and turn it off and hand fly it. the thing seemed very "choppy". of course in certain situations you just had to deal with the choppiness and let it do it's thing (ie IMC approach, etc...). then again these feelings of how the AP reacted varied from ship to ship and approach to approach.
 
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