Question: spatial awareness in helos?
- Thread starter killbilly
- Start date
Ha! They're good to have indeed. Am just poking the bear. Funny thing, in the AF Hawks, I'm up front. In the CBP Hawks, I'm one of the dirty people in the back.
We had a injured hiker on the side of a cliff in southern AZ one night that required a hoist rescue of about 200'. Our BP bird was scrambled out to there. I'm in back as Rescue Tech/EMT, and the hoist operator.....one of our BP backenders....was also an enlisted FE in my same AF reserve unit that I was a pilot in, we often flew together there.
So on scene on this call, we circle around to see what we have before coming to a hover to begin the hoist op in complete no-moon darkness....can't see anything except a few flashlights in the distant sheer cliffside below . Hoist operator gets me the hook end as I rig up, hook in, release from my floor anchor and slide to the cabin door edge. I then say I'm coming off comms, and the hoist operator does a final quick visual check of my rigging and hand signals me if I'm ready. I nod affirmative as he leans his head close towards my helmet and with this evil grin, says "I've always hated officers, especially pilots", then summarily shoves me out the helo cabin into the darkness and begins sending the cable, and me, fast-down nto the abyss.
killbilly
Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
So there's no visual cue or trick to show you whether or not your rotor disc might clip some trees or something in tight quarters? I realize you want a safety margin, I'm just wondering, visually, how close you can shave that. Maybe some things would be more obvious to me if I took a helo ride.
I've been really impressed with watching even the small helos - the R-22s, for example, hover taxi with great precision in places like JYO and FDK and I must say that I get curious about the flying and the skillset. There's something to be said for "stopping and landing" vs. "landing and trying to stop."
Lawman
Well-Known Member
So there's no visual cue or trick to show you whether or not your rotor disc might clip some trees or something in tight quarters? I realize you want a safety margin, I'm just wondering, visually, how close you can shave that. Maybe some things would be more obvious to me if I took a helo ride.
I've been really impressed with watching even the small helos - the R-22s, for example, hover taxi with great precision in places like JYO and FDK and I must say that I get curious about the flying and the skillset. There's something to be said for "stopping and landing" vs. "landing and trying to stop."
Some aircraft have visual queuing to provide a degree of assistance.
Velocity queuing is probably our most critical in the Apache as it provides a GPS/inertial check that the aircraft is remaining in a point in space or provides you with a scalable reference as to your movement speed. From a hover a fully deflected line across your display constitutes 6 knots movement, and scales up in different modes of display.
But no most of the real effect of spatial orientation and perception is a learned memory, not an aircraft system tool.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
killbilly
Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
Hmmm. Okay. Let me ask the question in a different way.
When you're taxiing in a piston single - like a 172 or an Arrow, they tell us "to make sure you're on centerline, line up the stripe with your inside leg, and then take note of a rivet line or other 'mark' on the cowl that serves for alignment."
Is there a similar type of reference or technique in helos?
Lawman
Well-Known Member
So in the Apache you sit centerline so staying on the line from your point of reference is easy.... turning and keeping the line between the wheels is more the difficulty. This is especially apparently when you taxi under the FLIR because it’s about 15 feet forward of the mains. Similarly to turn and pivot around the mast feels entirely different from the front than the back seat because you’re a full 6 feet in space further from that point.
That’s one of the reasons to train hover work. It starts as simple as hovering in place turns but using a combination of pedals and cyclic movement to pivot the aircraft at different points of the aircraft. Tip of the nose, under your butt directly, the mast, the tail... you should be able to move the aircraft in a coordinated manner that functions on all points. Another training trick is “finger painting” where you similarly use a point in space on the aircraft and an outside visual reference like the H or the outside square of a helipad. Ok now move around and “paint the H” with that reference point while maintaining hover standards. It sounds stupid as hell and it feels funny but it’s a necessary control touch to cultivate when you start talking about moving into confining terrain and vegetation to do business
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
thehobbit
Well-Known Member
I don't remember the exact situation, but when I was learning to fly the r-22 I was sitting in the right seat and my instructor was doing a walk around. When it came time to check the rotor blades they were positioned from left to right.
He would push up on one side to make the other side go down. You push the blades up never pull them down on the Robinson helicopters. Well when he did that it was an excellent visual cue of how far away the blades extended. And you just have to keep that in your memory.
Preflight and start of semi-rigid/teetering 2 blade rotor systems are done with the blades at the 3/9 position. 6/12 is for parking and tiedown.
thehobbit
Well-Known Member
Yeah you're right, using the description of 3/9 position is clearer than saying left to right.
Ian_J
Hubschrauber Flieger
I think I see what you’re asking, and the answer is no.
Many helicopter operations require confined area landings where you essentially hover straight down into a field surrounded by trees tight in. You can see your tip path plane, and have to use experience/best guess if your rotor system will clear the trees. Besides the tip plane and the trees, there’s not much else to look at.
For clearing the tail without a crew chief, I think the others already gave some good techniques. Besides doing clearing turns, you’re left with experience to determine where your tail is.
See the 10th Mountain taxiing accident at KRME to see how this can all go horribly wrong.
killbilly
Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
Yeah - that's a lot closer to my question - I should have asked it that way to begin with.
From your description, if I'm reading it right, the mast isn't the only vertical axis you can pivot around? You can, for example, pivot around the front seat or the FLIR pod or some other point along the centerline?
Because that's 100% awesome.
Yes. If you're hover taxiing or even very low level for a takeoff run; and you have to quickly stop forward momentum, if you merely rotate along the mast in your quick stop maneuver, you'll likely strike the tail on the ground. For a true quick stop, you have to pivot around the tail (keeping the tail from descending to the ground) by accepting a little altitude (ballooning) in order to flare and stop forward progress. When forward motion is stopped, then pivot forward against to level flight and nicely settle back down to hover height.
Nark
Macho Superpilot
In the UH60M we have slanted rotor tips, much like a winglet. It gives a decent indication of your tip-path-plain. However if you focus on it, you’ll lose SA in other respects and will drift around the hover point.
The newer helicopters (Army) have fancy avionics giving you GPS/INS position. With that they can give you all sorts of info.
As for taxiing I use my inside leg, since we alternate left and right seatflying.
It’s truly a learned action to maintain SA while hovering. Using Night Vision Goggles introduces a whole host of illusions. Lawman touched on the Army’s buzzwords. (One of the few times I’ll give Army credit: they do a good job teaching human factors to crews)
The newer helicopters (Army) have fancy avionics giving you GPS/INS position. With that they can give you all sorts of info.
As for taxiing I use my inside leg, since we alternate left and right seatflying.
It’s truly a learned action to maintain SA while hovering. Using Night Vision Goggles introduces a whole host of illusions. Lawman touched on the Army’s buzzwords. (One of the few times I’ll give Army credit: they do a good job teaching human factors to crews)
Autothrust Blue
"Well, on the Brasilia..."
This is all quite cool to read, and makes me want to go for a helicopter ride to watch it in action.
I've said it many times before, and I'll keep saying it again with my diatribe here:
Unlike airplanes, helicopters simply have a death wish, wanting to commit suicide at all times, and waiting for the right moment when the pilot isn't paying attention, so they can take you with them. It's nothing personal.......for they do warn you beforehand: The helicopter does in fact talk to you at all times. But woe be the pilot who 1. Doesn't listen to what the helicopter is telling him (complacency), or 2. Doesn't fully understand the language the helicopter is speaking (inexperience); for the helicopter will interpert both of these failures to listen to it, as a pilot who also has a suicidal death wish same as the helicopter, and who gladly wants to share with the helicopter a double-suicide fate. A fate the helicopter is more than happy to accomodate. And the helicopter is, and has always been, equal opportunity in this regard; for it harbors no hatred, holds no personal grudges, and does not discriminate in any way, shape, or form.
Helicopters have no friends, don't want any friends, and don't care to be your friend. Understand that, and you will be fine as the pilot of them.
Unlike airplanes, helicopters simply have a death wish, wanting to commit suicide at all times, and waiting for the right moment when the pilot isn't paying attention, so they can take you with them. It's nothing personal.......for they do warn you beforehand: The helicopter does in fact talk to you at all times. But woe be the pilot who 1. Doesn't listen to what the helicopter is telling him (complacency), or 2. Doesn't fully understand the language the helicopter is speaking (inexperience); for the helicopter will interpert both of these failures to listen to it, as a pilot who also has a suicidal death wish same as the helicopter, and who gladly wants to share with the helicopter a double-suicide fate. A fate the helicopter is more than happy to accomodate. And the helicopter is, and has always been, equal opportunity in this regard; for it harbors no hatred, holds no personal grudges, and does not discriminate in any way, shape, or form.
Helicopters have no friends, don't want any friends, and don't care to be your friend. Understand that, and you will be fine as the pilot of them.
Ian_J
Hubschrauber Flieger
Meh. This is just a sad old diatribe circulated amongst helicopter pilots to make themselves feel good about themselves. Allow me to illustrate.
Unlike helicopters , airplanes simply have a death wish, wanting to commit suicide at all times by flying way too fast, and waiting for the right moment when the pilot isn't paying attention when flying in odd, white, puffy airy substances, so they can take you with them. It's nothing personal.......for they do warn you beforehand: The airplane does in fact talk to you at all times. But woe be the pilot who 1. Doesn't listen to what the airplane is telling him (I’m in icing!), or 2. Doesn't fully understand the language the airplane is speaking (IFR, have you even heard of it?); for the airplane will interpert both of these failures to listen to it, as a pilot who also has a suicidal death wish same as the airplane, and who gladly wants to share with the airplane a double-suicide fate. A fate the airplane is more than happy to accomodate. And the airplane is, and has always been, equal opportunity in this regard; for it harbors no hatred, holds no personal grudges, and does not discriminate in any way, shape, or form.
Airplanes have no friends (they’re just flying machines after all), don't want any friends, and don't care to be your friend. Understand that, and you will be fine as the pilot of them. (Also, learn how to fly fast, fly in clouds, learn how to operate slats, flaps, spoilers, and gear, and while you’re at it, at least learn a little bit about rules and procedures when flying in clouds).
Meh. This is just a sad old diatribe circulated amongst helicopter pilots to make themselves feel good about themselves. Allow me to illustrate.
Unlike helicopters , airplanes simply have a death wish, wanting to commit suicide at all times by flying way too fast, and waiting for the right moment when the pilot isn't paying attention when flying in odd, white, puffy airy substances, so they can take you with them. It's nothing personal.......for they do warn you beforehand: The airplane does in fact talk to you at all times. But woe be the pilot who 1. Doesn't listen to what the airplane is telling him (I’m in icing!), or 2. Doesn't fully understand the language the airplane is speaking (IFR, have you even heard of it?); for the airplane will interpert both of these failures to listen to it, as a pilot who also has a suicidal death wish same as the airplane, and who gladly wants to share with the airplane a double-suicide fate. A fate the airplane is more than happy to accomodate. And the airplane is, and has always been, equal opportunity in this regard; for it harbors no hatred, holds no personal grudges, and does not discriminate in any way, shape, or form.
Airplanes have no friends (they’re just flying machines after all), don't want any friends, and don't care to be your friend. Understand that, and you will be fine as the pilot of them. (Also, learn how to fly fast, fly in clouds, learn how to operate slats, flaps, spoilers, and gear, and while you’re at it, at least learn a little bit about rules and procedures when flying in clouds).
Airplanes are generally stable and want to fly. Helicopters are not and really do not like to fly, we have to force them to.. You should know that, Colonel.....
Just because you're a regional guy now, don't be one of those who forget where it is you came from.
Ian_J
Hubschrauber Flieger
Holy crap, I’m joking, Mike!
NovemberEcho
Dergs favorite member
Lol. My bad. I thought going to jets had maybe changed you.
I stand corrected sir.
