I learned about aviation from... TMAAT...

[Skåning]

Initials ZM by chance?

Australian guy?

 

[ASpilot2be]

Australian guy?

Yep. I believe we discussed him over beers.

 

[Skåning]

Yep. I believe we discussed him over beers.

Oh yeah. It’s been a minute, we need to do that again! (the beers part)

 

[ASpilot2be]

Oh yeah. It’s been a minute, we need to do that again! (the beers part)

Absolutely! I get home sometime in the next week.

 

[Tiptank]

???

 

[SurferLucas]

Australian guy?

Same name as main TopGun character?

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

Ok. He is also building a reputation I hear.

I don't know who that is. But without going into too much detail I'll try and point out what were the worst qualities of the one FO I've flow with so far that made things way harder than it needed to be. I'm doing this to help the FOs I see posting in this thread and the OP:

- I showed up and entered the flight deck and they told me which legs I'd fly. Weird flex but OK. I rolled with it but it was a red flag.
- They immediately referenced their LCA experience at a regional airline and continued to do so.
- They spent a lot of time hanging with the FAs and didn't get things done even when PAX were boarding creating a timing issue.
- They got super flustered when the clearance wasn't as filed and they had to hand jam a flight plan into the FMC.
- They kept making changes to the FMC so fast I couldn't keep up with them but the changes were wrong and we were low on time.
- I asked them to slow down and they were capable of working extremely fast but sadly it was not accurate work
- They got upset I fixed their mistake.
- They started to be kind of snarky and pointed out perceived errors I was making. Since the exploding engine cowls were added to the MAX, I've tried to use anti ice less. Even though we could see over 200 miles there was a light haze and he kept asking me if I wanted anti ice in the most obnoxious way possible. I'm sure some people will have an issue with my non adherence to the exact definition of icing conditions but these were basically sky farts and most people forget they accidentally leave the ice when it doesn't need to be on all the time. In the MAX this is apparently a big deal.
- I asked them to run through they HGS briefing card because the weather seemed like it was getting foggy and it would be easier to run the briefing card for an HGS approach sooner than at the last second and they kept pushing back on it. I spent more time prompting them to run the card then briefing the HGS approach card.

 

[Roger Roger]

- I showed up and entered the flight deck and they told me which legs I'd fly. Weird flex but OK. I rolled with it but it was a red flag.

Ok as a new FO and not really familiar with the niceties on the 121 flight deck, it slightly drives me nuts when the captain shows up and tries to make me pick who flies first. It’s way more comfortable to have the captain take the lead and say “I’ll take the first leg” “you good to take the first leg?” Or “wanna spin/flip for first leg?” Than for both of us to sit there staring at eachother going “I don’t care, what do YOU want?”. At the last job as a captain because of the way our schedules and pairings were set up when we got a trip I usually had an idea how I wanted the rotation to go and I’d just make sure the FO was good with it too.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I don't know who that is. But without going into too much detail I'll try and point out what were the worst qualities of the one FO I've flow with so far that made things way harder than it needed to be. I'm doing this to help the FOs I see posting in this thread and the OP:

- I showed up and entered the flight deck and they told me which legs I'd fly. Weird flex but OK. I rolled with it but it was a red flag.

Nip that in the bud. Normally I’ll let a guy choose the legs, but not cool for them to start off telling me how it’s going to be. A cool FO would state something like “hey, I haven’t been to XYZ in ages, mind if I take blah blah leg?”

- They immediately referenced their LCA experience at a regional airline and continued to do so.

Red flag

- They got upset I fixed their mistake.

This. I’m seeing guys make a mistake, when pointed out even in a nice way, get defensive about it. What kinda CRM are they teaching people these days? This is a pre-AS problem.

- They started to be kind of snarky and pointed out perceived errors I was making. Since the exploding

This is a self defense mechanism.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

Ok as a new FO and not really familiar with the niceties on the 121 flight deck, it slightly drives me nuts when the captain shows up and tries to make me pick who flies first. It’s way more comfortable to have the captain take the lead and say “I’ll take the first leg” “you good to take the first leg?” Or “wanna spin/flip for first leg?” Than for both of us to sit there staring at eachother going “I don’t care, what do YOU want?”. At the last job as a captain because of the way our schedules and pairings were set up when we got a trip I usually had an idea how I wanted the rotation to go and I’d just make sure the FO was good with it too.

I offer the first leg and tell them if they don't take it I'm going to immediately take it because that's what I did as an FO

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Ok as a new FO and not really familiar with the niceties on the 121 flight deck, it slightly drives me nuts when the captain shows up and tries to make me pick who flies first. It’s way more comfortable to have the captain take the lead and say “I’ll take the first leg” “you good to take the first leg?” Or “wanna spin/flip for first leg?” Than for both of us to sit there staring at eachother going “I don’t care, what do YOU want?”. At the last job as a captain because of the way our schedules and pairings were set up when we got a trip I usually had an idea how I wanted the rotation to go and I’d just make sure the FO was good with it too.

I usually let FOs pick. Not gonna lie, if I see a BUR or SNA, I’ll pick so I land those. Now there’s a CP email saying some FOs are complaining that CAs take short field runways and they don’t get landings there, so please share legs so they can land there too. I can understand that. I’m now changing.


Landings is something I can’t teach a guy. And if you’re flying with a floater, who just barely makes the LTP for each landing, well I’m not getting the warm and fuzzies for them going into BUR/SNA.

At some shops, those airports are CA only takeoff/landings. Not here.

 

[Rosstafari]

At the gate, a new FO used the display switching panel to go from ‘norm’ to ‘both on right’ in order to send the Baro accel height from FO side to mine. I’ve never seen someone do that. Said FO commented how “I’m trying to be a good FO.”

At the risk of sounding like a bonehead, can you explain the error in more detail? I think I'm not understanding something.

Same FO going into SEA.

(story)

Well, at least I know better than that.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

At the risk of sounding like a bonehead, can you explain the error in more detail? I think I'm not understanding something.



Well, at least I know better than that.

Well it’s not a published procedure (for starters).


I’m just not a fan of using a transfer switch panel, with switches in the Norm position, to force something to “both on right” in order to capture the BARO Accel and altimeter setting from the FO side and force capture to the CA side, and switch back to Norm.

Just reach across to the BARO and Altimeter setting knobs on the CA side and set them that way (the normal published method).

 

[BobDDuck]

Ok as a new FO and not really familiar with the niceties on the 121 flight deck, it slightly drives me nuts when the captain shows up and tries to make me pick who flies first. It’s way more comfortable to have the captain take the lead and say “I’ll take the first leg” “you good to take the first leg?” Or “wanna spin/flip for first leg?” Than for both of us to sit there staring at eachother going “I don’t care, what do YOU want?”. At the last job as a captain because of the way our schedules and pairings were set up when we got a trip I usually had an idea how I wanted the rotation to go and I’d just make sure the FO was good with it too.

I started keeping a quarter in my bag and if a captain did that, I'd just call heads or tails and flip it. Less awkward that way.

 

[Kingairer]

I don't know who that is. But without going into too much detail I'll try and point out what were the worst qualities of the one FO I've flow with so far that made things way harder than it needed to be. I'm doing this to help the FOs I see posting in this thread and the OP:

- I showed up and entered the flight deck and they told me which legs I'd fly. Weird flex but OK. I rolled with it but it was a red flag.
- They immediately referenced their LCA experience at a regional airline and continued to do so.
- They spent a lot of time hanging with the FAs and didn't get things done even when PAX were boarding creating a timing issue.
- They got super flustered when the clearance wasn't as filed and they had to hand jam a flight plan into the FMC.
- They kept making changes to the FMC so fast I couldn't keep up with them but the changes were wrong and we were low on time.
- I asked them to slow down and they were capable of working extremely fast but sadly it was not accurate work
- They got upset I fixed their mistake.
- They started to be kind of snarky and pointed out perceived errors I was making. Since the exploding engine cowls were added to the MAX, I've tried to use anti ice less. Even though we could see over 200 miles there was a light haze and he kept asking me if I wanted anti ice in the most obnoxious way possible. I'm sure some people will have an issue with my non adherence to the exact definition of icing conditions but these were basically sky farts and most people forget they accidentally leave the ice when it doesn't need to be on all the time. In the MAX this is apparently a big deal.
- I asked them to run through they HGS briefing card because the weather seemed like it was getting foggy and it would be easier to run the briefing card for an HGS approach sooner than at the last second and they kept pushing back on it. I spent more time prompting them to run the card then briefing the HGS approach card.

Oh that dog just ain’t gonna hunt right there. Sometimes you got to deal with something small early on before it festers. Im thinking about that recent post where the dickhead FO crashed that corporate jet into Tahoe or something , these can be serious situations, stop it early.

 

[JustinS]

I started keeping a quarter in my bag and if a captain did that, I'd just call heads or tails and flip it. Less awkward that way.

Not sure what’s awkward about it. If the CA gives me a choice I just say “you fly,” unless I feel like flying then I’ll say “I’ll fly.”

 

[killbilly]

Ok as a new FO and not really familiar with the niceties on the 121 flight deck, it slightly drives me nuts when the captain shows up and tries to make me pick who flies first. It’s way more comfortable to have the captain take the lead and say “I’ll take the first leg” “you good to take the first leg?” Or “wanna spin/flip for first leg?” Than for both of us to sit there staring at eachother going “I don’t care, what do YOU want?”. At the last job as a captain because of the way our schedules and pairings were set up when we got a trip I usually had an idea how I wanted the rotation to go and I’d just make sure the FO was good with it too.

Unless I have a specific reason for wanting the first leg, I'll generally suggest that the CA take the first leg. Reason being, I want to see how they want things done, how they operate.

If it's a particularly interesting outstation, or gives me a chance to practice something (like no-automation visuals) I'll ask for it and state the reason why. Boss can still say no, that's their prerogative.

 

[killbilly]

In the larger context of this thread - and I PM'd @ClearedForOption about this...

I think a smart FO helps the CA help them. This means bringing both a Beginner Mindset and a healthy dose of humility to the flight deck. Even if it's an airplane you already know well, or even have moderate familiarity with, it's a sign of basic respect to learn the operation.

If you think about what might make you easy to fly with, and do that, you might get good results. Just a thought from the right seat here; you've got a measure of responsibility for how your pairing experience goes.

EDIT - I wrote the above addressing FOs, but can see how it could apply to both.

 

[Skåning]

I started keeping a quarter in my bag and if a captain did that, I'd just call heads or tails and flip it. Less awkward that way.

Heading bug roulette! Ask if they want odd or even, then spin the heading bug.

Not sure what’s awkward about it. If the CA gives me a choice I just say “you fly,” unless I feel like flying then I’ll say “I’ll fly.”

If the FO asks my preference I say, “you fly all the legs”

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

Oh that dog just ain’t gonna hunt right there. Sometimes you got to deal with something small early on before it festers. Im thinking about that recent post where the dickhead FO crashed that corporate jet into Tahoe or something , these can be serious situations, stop it early.

The captain crashed I think. The FO had terrible CRM. He was being snarky and downplayed the low visibility from smoke going into TRK. Which I frankly find terrifying. He didn't help the CA at all. Some are blaming him for the crash since he deployed the speedbrakes without telling the CA at a critical moment right before loss of control. That entire episode is a textbook how not to CRM.

The thing is. The captain could have always diverted to RNO and sorted out the extremely difficult to work with FO through management later. Part of being a good captain and being a good mentor is also knowing when to put your foot down and stop bad behavior. My particular episode was a bit of a surprise and caught me off guard since everyone else I have flown with since my upgrade has been better than me. Granted the bar is set pretty low (I kid) but I have zero gripes about my coworkers where I am employed.