"Fuel Without a Plan....

[TAF_Master]

....is not really a plan". At first I thought it was typical management spiel penny pinching, but that advice from my first regional manager has taken me far in this career. Your thoughts, or first advice that stuck with you?

 

[autosave36]

1. Fuel is time, time is options, options are good.

2. Go high go fast go hold

3. Nobody has ever said "i got a cloud on my 6 and i can't shake it.

4. Alternates are really handy when theyre open and even better if they know theyre an alternate.

5. Doesn't matter, youre going anyways.

 

[bbmikej]

#4

Dispatcher: Hey, you guys are being listed as an alternate tonight.

Station: Um, nobody is going to be here. We are going home.

D: I'm not asking, I'm informing you.

S: Ok, but no one will be here.

D: How about I give you (Delta/American/United)'s number and you can figure it out from there.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Fuel me like your kid is on the airplane, not like your mother-in-law is on the airplane.

It's just fuel. It's not like you're paying for it.

 

[A1TAPE]

#4

Dispatcher: Hey, you guys are being listed as an alternate tonight.

Station: Um, nobody is going to be here. We are going home.

D: I'm not asking, I'm informing you.

S: Ok, but no one will be here.

D: How about I give you (Delta/American/United)'s number and you can figure it out from there.

When it happens that they don't even pick up the phone and the situation turns into being forced to bump pax to get a alternate where people showed up to work you better believe we let DL/AA/UA know while also telling the hub why we are telling (insert pax number) to rent a car and drive or get a hotel and putting the blame on the airport where nobody showed up to work.

 

[TAF_Master]

Fuel me like your kid is on the airplane, not like your mother-in-law is on the airplane.

It's just fuel. It's not like you're paying for it.

Ohh not to say I would fuel lightly. Rather, it usually works out better to look up the TCF and figure out where the TS will most likely have a gap when the plane gets there rather than file the canned route with plus however many pounds for pilot deviations.

 

[shutdown]

Fuel me like your kid is on the airplane, not like your mother-in-law is on the airplane.

It's just fuel. It's not like you're paying for it.

If you haven't already had a chance to sit with one of us on a desk, drop a line any time (assuming you're the same username over on the more central site).

 

[ZapBrannigan]

If you haven't already had a chance to sit with one of us on a desk, drop a line any time (assuming you're the same username over on the more central site).

Thank you, I'll take you up on that!

 

[///AMG]

Couple extra thousand pounds of gas at land time when it isn't CAVU? I'll never argue with that. But there is a limit of how much is useful. Costs fuel to carry fuel, can't climb high as soon (if that happens to be advantageous), and from a dollars and cents perspective, everything costs more rolling around heavier than you need to be (performance, brake pads, engine life, etc). But hell, we tanker fuel all the time, so it sounds like it doesn't matter that much anyway

 

[McCrosky]

....is not really a plan". At first I thought it was typical management spiel penny pinching, but that advice from my first regional manager has taken me far in this career. Your thoughts, or first advice that stuck with you?

“Great, Custer had a plan, too” - Russell Zisky

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Couple extra thousand pounds of gas at land time when it isn't CAVU? I'll never argue with that. But there is a limit of how much is useful. Costs fuel to carry fuel, can't climb high as soon (if that happens to be advantageous), and from a dollars and cents perspective, everything costs more rolling around heavier than you need to be (performance, brake pads, engine life, etc). But hell, we tanker fuel all the time, so it sounds like it doesn't matter that much anyway

A month or so ago coming out of California for Denver we held for a while. Then the weather dropped below forecast. We got vectored for the Cat III ILS, but when we joined the localizer A3 wouldn't arm. So we went miss. Figured maybe we set it up wrong so had them vector us for another one. Joined the localizer for that one, same problem. Diverted to ABQ and landed.

First thing I did was call the dispatcher and thank him for the extra gas he through on just in case. When everything is going to heck, a little extra fuel buys us time to figure out what is going on and come up with a plan. Solving a problem WHILE worrying about fuel is stress I don't need.

That said, I'd rather not tanker gas into the Burbanks and Orange Counties of the world either. It's a fine line.

Thankfully we have professional dispatchers who usually think through these things before I ever get the first look at the release.

 

[TAF_Master]

#4

Dispatcher: Hey, you guys are being listed as an alternate tonight.

Station: Um, nobody is going to be here. We are going home.

D: I'm not asking, I'm informing you.

S: Ok, but no one will be here.

D: How about I give you (Delta/American/United)'s number and you can figure it out from there.

I do not miss that from the regional days. Had a certain station tell me it would be unsafe to list them as an alternate due to ops understaffing. What is unsafe about VFR and a good runway? Its your job to figure out the handling after landing, I'm just giving you a courtesy call.

 

[///AMG]

A month or so ago coming out of California for Denver we held for a while. Then the weather dropped below forecast. We got vectored for the Cat III ILS, but when we joined the localizer A3 wouldn't arm. So we went miss. Figured maybe we set it up wrong so had them vector us for another one. Joined the localizer for that one, same problem. Diverted to ABQ and landed.

First thing I did was call the dispatcher and thank him for the extra gas he through on just in case. When everything is going to heck, a little extra fuel buys us time to figure out what is going on and come up with a plan. Solving a problem WHILE worrying about fuel is stress I don't need.

That said, I'd rather not tanker gas into the Burbanks and Orange Counties of the world either. It's a fine line.

Thankfully we have professional dispatchers who usually think through these things before I ever get the first look at the release.

Yep. I "grew up" perpetually worried about gas, basically always. Short legged little plane, unforgiving environment, yada yada. We shot off the bow of the ship with less gas than we needed to complete the mission, and had to beg for scraps to get healthy again. And then when it came time to land, had to dump so much that you once again had no options in the event of a bolter. So I'll always take more. But I now realize things like you said at the end. Please take all the gas if I'm going into BUR. And all the pax. And hopefully it isn't pouring rain.

 

[LastMinuteAirline]

There is a fine line between an appropriate amount of fuel and being wasteful. A good dispatcher can dance a jig on that line...while juggling.

 

[TAF_Master]

There is a fine line between an appropriate amount of fuel and being wasteful. A good dispatcher can dance a jig on that line...while juggling.

You know, it wasn't even the part about being wasteful or the economics that struck me. I still max fuel here and there. It was hey my job is to figure out the big picture for these guys (and gals) in the cockpit and give them a reasonable plan they can make minor adjustments to, instead of just giving them fuel and having them rely on a 100NM or so weather radar and ATC and then having to make major adjustments.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

There is a fine line between an appropriate amount of fuel and being wasteful. A good dispatcher can dance a jig on that line...while juggling.

Here's the problem I have.

Let's work backwards. On my airplane at 4000 lbs we have to declare min fuel.

It takes about 1500 lbs (rule of thumb) to do a go around, and get vectored around for a second approach. So 4000+1500 = 5500.

So, if it's clear, blue, and a million AND we have more than one runway at our arrival city, I don't want to go with planned arrival fuel of less than 5500. Why?

Because go arounds happen. Whether traffic ahead is slow to clear, we float too far down the runway, or we are unstabilized... whatever. Stuff happens.

I don't ask for more fuel often but if we are planned to land with less than 5500 I'm definitely looking more critically at the weather, number of usable runways, distance to any other airport that can accommodate our airplane (if destination has only one usable runway) experience level of the person sitting to my right, etc..

 

[Pepwave1]

Here's the problem I have.

Let's work backwards. On my airplane at 4000 lbs we have to declare min fuel.

It takes about 1500 lbs (rule of thumb) to do a go around, and get vectored around for a second approach. So 4000+1500 = 5500.

So, if it's clear, blue, and a million AND we have more than one runway at our arrival city, I don't want to go with planned arrival fuel of less than 5500. Why?

Because go arounds happen. Whether traffic ahead is slow to clear, we float too far down the runway, or we are unstabilized... whatever. Stuff happens.

I don't ask for more fuel often but if we are planned to land with less than 5500 I'm definitely looking more critically at the weather, number of usable runways, distance to any other airport that can accommodate our airplane (if destination has only one usable runway) experience level of the person sitting to my right, etc..

I'm curious as to what aircraft this is...

 

[FlyinSol0]

I'm curious as to what aircraft this is...

737