Rough terrain engine failure - lake or trees?

[SteveC]

It is hard to understand how disorienting it is to be upside down unless you've been there. Years ago, after a long day of downhill skiing, I was riding in the back seat of my old S10 blazer. In fact I was laying down on the bench, sleeping, without my seat belt on. The driver was going fairly slowly in crappy weather, got caught in some heavy slush ruts, and after some fishtailing we slid off the side of the road. We got turned sideways and in slow motion rolled onto the right side and then onto the roof. I found myself lying on the inside roof of the Blazer, looking at the dome light, with the two girls up front hanging from their seat belts in front of me. Trying to get my head straight on figuring out what I was seeing, much less doing something as simple as opening the door, was a real eye opener.

I can't imagine being in a similar situation with freezing cold water pouring in.

 

[dasleben]

Yeah, my first instinct would be to do a low-speed crash into the trees, but either way wouldn't be fun. You might survive the ditching (and the probable flip), but now you're soaking wet in cold temperatures, and the aircraft will take your survival gear and ELT with it when it sinks. Good luck!

Man, I sure am glad that I fly a multi-turbine these days. Done lots of night, mountainous single-engine piston flying previously, though. Stoopid.

 

[Tommay85]

Yeah, my first instinct would be to do a low-speed crash into the trees, but either way wouldn't be fun. You might survive the ditching (and the probable flip), but now you're soaking wet in cold temperatures, and the aircraft will take your survival gear and ELT with it when it sinks. Good luck!

Man, I sure am glad that I fly a multi-turbine these days. Done lots of night, mountainous single-engine piston flying previously, though. Stoopid.

Me too and I shudder at the thought of it now! Didn't think anything of it when doing it. Guess I'm getting old and weak.

 

[MikeD]

Man, I sure am glad that I fly a multi-turbine these days. Done lots of night, mountainous single-engine piston flying previously, though. Stoopid.

Me too and I shudder at the thought of it now! Didn't think anything of it when doing it. Guess I'm getting old and weak.

I wouldn't say its stupid. It's just the risk accepted in order to get a job done; the mission requirement, if you will. Guys usd to navigate across the oceans with no electronic NAVAIDs. I wouldn't call that stupid, it was simply what the situation was.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Yeah, my first instinct would be to do a low-speed crash into the trees, but either way wouldn't be fun. You might survive the ditching (and the probable flip), but now you're soaking wet in cold temperatures, and the aircraft will take your survival gear and ELT with it when it sinks. Good luck!

Man, I sure am glad that I fly a multi-turbine these days. Done lots of night, mountainous single-engine piston flying previously, though. Stoopid.

Your new avatar = LOL.

 

[dasleben]

I wouldn't say its stupid. It's just the risk accepted in order to get a job done. Gyuys usd to navigate across the oceans with no electronic NAVAIDs. I wouldn't call that stupid, it was simply what the situation was.

In my situation, there were indeed safer ways to have accomplished the task. I just didn't put enough thought into it when I was new to this whole thing.

 

[Tommay85]

Oh I don't think it's stupid, I just wouldn't want to do it now. I'd go bomb around in the mountains in a single during the day though. Like a certified maniac too!

 

[Tommay85]

Your new avatar = LOL.

I still watch strongbad videos!

 

[MikeD]

In my situation, there were indeed safer ways to have accomplished the task. I just didn't put enough thought into it when I was new to this whole thing.

Now that I can understand.

Take me for instance. I fly a single engine helo and oftentimes find myself down in the lee-side of a rugged canyon in a hover or a slow-troll, covering and scouting ahead of and around ground LEOs while searching for bad guys I know are down there. Im so far outside any kind of safe autorotation ability, much less a safe place to even auto too or touchdown at, if that engine quits; but its what the mission need is. An accepted risk. Abeit a pretty extreme one, but one nonetheless. And this isn't just day, it's night too. Hope the Turbomeca keeps chugging as advertised. And that's not even considering being a sitting duck for anyone I can't see who wants to take a shot at the bird (or me) or heave a rock through the rotor system. That's why I say things like this aren't stupid. When everything is working like it should, it's fine. It's just when everything doesn't, where the roll of the dice begins.

 

[dasleben]

Now that I can understand.

Take me for instance. I fly a single engine helo and oftentimes find myself down in the lee-side of a rugged canyon in a hover or a slow-troll, covering and scouting ahead of and around ground LEOs while searching for bad guys I know are down there. Im so far outside any kind of safe autorotation ability, much less a safe place to even auto too or touchdown at, if that engine quits; but its what the mission need is. An accepted risk. Abeit a pretty extreme one, but one nonetheless. And this isn't just day, it's night too. Hope the Turbomeca keeps chugging as advertised. And that's not even considering being a sitting duck for anyone I can't see who wants to take a shot at the bird (or me) or heave a rock through the rotor system. That's why I say things like this aren't stupid. When everything is working like it should, it's fine. It's just when everything doesn't, where the roll of the dice begins.

Oh yeah, you're accepting the risk for a job that needs to be done the way you're doing it. No question there.

For me, it was flight instructing, usually at night, flying over rugged terrain for no reason other than to get the lesson done. There were safer practice areas to be in, too.

 

[MikeD]

Oh yeah, you're accepting the risk for a job that needs to be done the way you're doing it. No question there.

For me, it was flight instructing, usually at night, flying over rugged terrain for no reason other than to get the lesson done. There were safer practice areas to be in, too.

Agree.

Even for single engine freight, which I used to do long ago in a 207 / PA-32R at night over mountainous terrain, it was what I was getting paid to do....get the cargo from A to B. Looking back, I should've asked for more $$

 

[MikeD]

What's interesting too about the job I described with the helo, is I can almost write the accident report right now, and just leave the date/time/location/pilot name fields blank. Even if it's a mechanical failure, and regardless of if it was mission essential; there will still be some degree of pilot error blame for knowingly placing the aircraft in a flight regime and environment where there was no or very limited escape from. That's the sucky aspect of the whole thing.

 

[Markf64]

rframe I just saw this link for a water landing. Thought you might find it interesting based on this thread.

http://www.aopa.org/asf/rps/rps_underwaterescape/?CMP=ADV:1

 

[Jpax]

I'd try for a nice, slow, controlled descent into the trees near the powerlines. Assuming all goes well, I'd do everything in my power to destroy the powerlines. When someone comes to fix it, and they will, hopefully I haven't been dined on yet!

 

[Cessnaflyer]

I'd try for a nice, slow, controlled descent into the trees near the powerlines. Assuming all goes well, I'd do everything in my power to destroy the powerlines. When someone comes to fix it, and they will, hopefully I haven't been dined on yet!

Caught the three wire

 

[UAShopeful]

The idea of landing in/near powerlines is pretty terrifying to me, especially since those things can be so high power that they could probably melt your plane, not to mention harden up your insides enough after a nice microwaving of your body (just the thought gives me chills). Looking at the situation from a survival aspect, everyone has already address the pros and cons of each option, and I will probably say that I would opt to land/crash on land. It's too easy to get knocked out on a landing like that, and if you're in water, forget about it. Even if you don't get knocked out in a ditching, now you have to battle potential hypothermia. The landing is just part one of the survival. Once the crash is over, now you have to stop thinking as a pilot and start thinking as a boy scout. You could be battling wildlife, the elements, and injury for a long time before someone finds you. In a wilderness survival situation, a plane wreck can be a goldmine in makeshift tools, weapons, shelter, etc. A plane wreck does you no good at the bottom of a lake, especially if your survival kit went down with the ship, so to speak.

I've read several articles involving crashes in desert country, and these considerations are just as important. In one case, the downed pilot was injured in the crash and unable to walk. He pretty much just laid in the plane for 3 days before he was found in the desert. In those 3 days, he had coyotes and birds all trying to get at him, but he used parts of the plane to make noise when they got close. Without that plane for shelter he wouldn't have made it. Bottom line: in a wilderness survival situation, take full inventory of everything you have. If you want to crash in a lake, be ready to accept the fact that you're pretty much throwing away everything you have. And never assume that you'll be found right away.
100% of the people who have ever ended up in a wilderness survival situation were all people who did not plan or expect it to happen.

 

[jmreii]

I am amazed by all the great comments, based on the conditions and situation presented I will go with doors no. 2 or 3 through process of elimination. I will definitely stay out of the water because the temps are simply too cold for a successful evacuation giving the terrain near the water is rugged. Light aircraft and trees/bushes go together for the purposes of breaking my fall or slowing the aircraft down towards its fall to the ground. Make your mayday calls, set flaps if electrical or needed, turn electrical off, fuel off, tighten seat belts, secure cabin, slightly open door/window on pilot's side. Have flashlight available. My mountain experience was flying in the sierras with single engine aircraft and multi engine aircraft in the rockies.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

I still watch strongbad videos!

I sound like I am typing with boxing gloves on, when I'm typing.

 

[VinnieWinnie]

I would elect for the water landing.....close to the shore.

 

[GX]

I'm taking a controlled crash into the trees

The single biggest reason is simple; SURVIVAL GEAR. The ELT and the gear are located in the airplane. Any person knowingly flying into these conditions should be packing for the "just in case" scenario like this one. I mean, right? Ditch into the water, lose the gear, the airplane, and the ELT. Take the plane into the trees, and make it through the crash, you've got the ELT to get rescue started, the airplane to tear apart to use for survival gear, and gear to patch yourself up, start a fire, and start the makings of a shelter. Water from the lake, and some chow from under rocks, limbs, if necessary, or an MRE/can of Tuna, etc. Or, if you're a handgun packing type, well, you've got that too, if it came along. A ruck with 30lbs of gear will make this unforeseen circumstance much more enjoyable. Ditch into the lake, and leave your chances to fate.

The water option has too many variables with not enough margin for my liking. Flip the plane, you're trying to just save yourself. Gear is compromised (wet, possible damage) even if the plane is intact. Bang your head on the console? Now you're wet, cold, and confused, and dealing with a head injury. All bad juju.

Consider the need to get gear out of an airplane, and it changes the scope significantly, IMHO.