Envoy Air - American's LARGEST Regional Carrier

[Roger Roger]

Back in the day, is that how it used to be? That one would pay for their ATP out of pocket and not the company?

Yes, but also back in the day all it used to be was a flight or 2 in a twin and then your checkride. That’s all mine was. One of the few good career decisions I made was knocking that out when it was cheap and easy. I probably never would have broken out of the Alaska 135 single engine vortex otherwise

 

[FlyinSol0]

Back in the day, is that how it used to be? That one would pay for their ATP out of pocket and not the company?

Back in the day you didn’t need an ATP to be hired at Eagle! Not like you could get one at only 550 total/50 multi anyway. (2011 eagle mins, if I recall they were at commercial mins in 07 I think?)

 

[tcco94]

Back in the day, is that how it used to be? That one would pay for their ATP out of pocket and not the company?

No. For many years now ATP/CTP was paid for by the regional since it required the extremely expensive sim time.

Think there’s some confusion with paying for your ATP and the ATP/CTP program which is Level-D simulators that gives you approval to take your ATP written test which was a post Colgan change.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

No. For many years now ATP/CTP was paid for by the regional since it required the extremely expensive sim time.

Think there’s some confusion with paying for your ATP and the ATP/CTP program which is Level-D simulators that gives you approval to take your ATP written test which was a post Colgan change.

So what does that mean for the people like me who'll eventually have to do ATP/CTP in the future. If as @Sculprit said, its going away as an airline paid benefit? How much does it cost? Sounds spendy with the Level-D sims. I once heard about $5k, that still true?

 

[Hiboglossi]

Back in the day you didn’t need an ATP to be hired at Eagle! Not like you could get one at only 550 total/50 multi anyway. (2011 eagle mins, if I recall they were at commercial mins in 07 I think?)

You weren't legally required to have it before the ATP rule. However in less pilot-friendly job markets I assume you usually wouldn't be hired without it.

 

[tcco94]

So what does that mean for the people like me who'll eventually have to do ATP/CTP in the future. If as @Sculprit said, its going away as an airline paid benefit? How much does it cost? Sounds spendy with the Level-D sims. I once heard about $5k, that still true?

I’m sure some airlines will still be paying for it, but maybe I’m wrong. I’d be shocked if they all universally changed that.

As far as an expected cost - 7 day courses by ATP/CAE/L3 look to be about $4000

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

I’m sure some airlines will still be paying for it, but maybe I’m wrong. I’d be shocked if they all universally changed that.

As far as an expected cost - 7 day courses by ATP/CAE/L3 look to be about $4000

$4k, isn't thaaaaat bad. But free is better.

 

[phill1174]

So what does that mean for the people like me who'll eventually have to do ATP/CTP in the future. If as @Sculprit said, it’s going away as an airline paid benefit? How much does it cost? Sounds spendy with the Level-D sims. I once heard about $5k, that still true?

I’m sure airlines will still pay for ATP/CTP courses. I didn’t have to do it but I know 9E was paying for it. You usually got it done down in Dallas a few weeks before your Indoc. I do vaguely remember you having to pay back some or all of it (not sure) if you left within a year. That usually wasn’t an issue unless you were prior mil.

As far as the bonuses not being offered, that sucks. Hopefully Envoy got some good pay rates. If the past few years have taught us anything it’s that the money was always there to pay people. FUPM as far as I’m concerned.

 

[Hiboglossi]

I’m sure some airlines will still be paying for it, but maybe I’m wrong. I’d be shocked if they all universally changed that.

I think it will depend on market conditions. If they can fill classes without paying for it, then they won't pay for it. If they can't, they'll foot the bill.

Keep in mind that with the exception of the Pandemic, most of the time since the CTP started being required has been a very pilot-friendly hiring climate. I'm trying to remember if regionals stopped paying for the CTP when they first started hiring again after the Pandemic- I can't recall if they did and at any rate, they would have had to start footing the bill again pretty quickly.

 

[///AMG]

Yes, but also back in the day all it used to be was a flight or 2 in a twin and then your checkride. That’s all mine was. One of the few good career decisions I made was knocking that out when it was cheap and easy. I probably never would have broken out of the Alaska 135 single engine vortex otherwise

Yeah, I was dumb, a bunch of my navy friends were heading down to AL to knock theirs out before the new post-Colgan rules went into effect and I said basically "meh, no thanks, not trying to be an airline pilot"

whoops....~$10k later.....

 

[Sculprit]

So what does that mean for the people like me who'll eventually have to do ATP/CTP in the future. If as @Sculprit said, it’s going away as an airline paid benefit? How much does it cost? Sounds spendy with the Level-D sims. I once heard about $5k, that still true?

It varies widely. When my first 121 class got cancelled during Covid, I considered paying for my own ATP/CTP to help stand out for when hiring would eventually resume. I found some ghetto operations in Florida for as low as 1800.00 and as high as 5 or 7k (sorry I can’t remember) at Delta in ATL and everything in between.

Also for what it’s worth, OO is a notoriously frugal company and they never stopped paying for the ATP/CTO course even during the post covid rebound when that had a plethora of qualified applicants. So there’s some optimism there.

 

[tcco94]

$4k, isn't thaaaaat bad. But free is better.

It’s definitely gotten better. I remember some were flashing 7,000 price tags around. But still hopefully it doesn’t become norm to change this to making pilots pay for it. Sure tag a 12 month sign that if you leave in a year you pay it back. I can understand something like that more.

When I went at SkyWest years ago they put us in the sim of the plane we got which was really helpful because you got a little jumpstart on some things. For me that seemed more beneficial than some of my friends in A320 or 747 sims.

 

[Roger Roger]

It’s definitely gotten better. I remember some were flashing 7,000 price tags around. But still hopefully it doesn’t become norm to change this to making pilots pay for it. Sure tag a 12 month sign that if you leave in a year you pay it back. I can understand something like that more.

When I went at SkyWest years ago they put us in the sim of the plane we got which was really helpful because you got a little jumpstart on some things. For me that seemed more beneficial than some of my friends in A320 or 747 sims.

I thought the weight cutoff precluded doing it in most of the RJ sims? Or did they get an exemption if you were doing it in an air carrier training program?

 

[ahw01]

I got my ATPw done on 31 July 2014. Not sure it matters much.

 

[N826AW]

$4k, isn't thaaaaat bad. But free is better.

I just paid for mine. It was $3300 (+travel) if you are an ATP alum or $4300 without. That included the written exam as well.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

Also for what it’s worth, OO is a notoriously frugal company and they never stopped paying for the ATP/CTO course even during the post covid rebound when that had a plethora of qualified applicants. So there’s some optimism there.

Yeah but slavery ended in the US in 1865. But apparently made its return in 2023/2024.

 

[killbilly]

C5 paid for my ATP/CTP two years ago, and had a reasonable pro-rata payback schedule on the bonuses.

Today they still pay for ATP/CTP up front (if you need it) but you pay it back on payroll deduction, according to my friends still there.

Just a data point.

 

[BobDDuck]

I thought the weight cutoff precluded doing it in most of the RJ sims? Or did they get an exemption if you were doing it in an air carrier training program?

There's a minimum aircraft weight requirement for an ATP? Pretty sure as long as the sim has high enough fidelity to replace an actual aircraft, you are good to go.

 

[Roger Roger]

There's a minimum aircraft weight requirement for an ATP? Pretty sure as long as the sim has high enough fidelity to replace an actual aircraft, you are good to go.

Just looked it up, it’s 40k lbs so any airliner should be good to go. I knew we couldn’t do it any of the Lear sims because of the weight limit.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

That nonrev list though