Yet Another Logging Question.... Instrument / Night

Back when I still logged such things (I don't log anything now) I would log night time when it was dark outside. Pretty simple and keeps you inside the regs. Of course, I was probably loosing one or two tenths of time.

Also, if I flew a flight that started in daylight and the majority of the flight was day with just a smidgen of night at the end I would just log it as all day flying. Easier that way and kept me from having to do math. I wouldn't get wrapped and the axle too much about having enough night time.
 
So, here's what's fun.

It seems like you can log instrument time in VMC.

Why?

Because let's say it's clear and a million over the water, where you have no ground references to use.

Guess what?

You've got to use the instruments to keep the plane right side up.

So, BY DEFINITION, you are in actual instrument conditions even though you are flying in VMC.

Is your head going like this yet? :panic:
I didn't see the word "night" in your post. On a =day= when it's clear and a million with a nice horizon plainly visible in the distance where the sky meets the sea, a pilot who needs the instruments to keep the right side up needs a little work with a CFI.

My head isn't spinning. "Need the instruments to keep the plane right side up" is just about as simple a definition of something as I've ever seen.
 
Here is a graduate level question, one that has never been really addressed in the regs. I have my own thoughts about it but, let's discuss.

Flying at night, over unlit terrain (or water), moonless, starless (high overcast? low fog?). Basically no outside reference but, you are in the clear, not in clouds, VMC. This is very similar to what happened to JFK Jr. Legal to fly VFR according to the regs. Smart? Can you log instrument?
 
Here is a graduate level question, one that has never been really addressed in the regs. I have my own thoughts about it but, let's discuss.

Flying at night, over unlit terrain (or water), moonless, starless (high overcast? low fog?). Basically no outside reference but, you are in the clear, not in clouds, VMC. This is very similar to what happened to JFK Jr. Legal to fly VFR according to the regs. Smart? Can you log instrument?

The FAA has said you can log IMC in this situation.
 
Here is a graduate level question, one that has never been really addressed in the regs. I have my own thoughts about it but, let's discuss.

Flying at night, over unlit terrain (or water), moonless, starless (high overcast? low fog?). Basically no outside reference but, you are in the clear, not in clouds, VMC. This is very similar to what happened to JFK Jr. Legal to fly VFR according to the regs. Smart? Can you log instrument?
Was address by FAA Legal almost 25 years ago.

==============================
November 7, 1984
Mr. Joseph P. Carr

Dear Mr. Carr:
This is in response to your letter asking questions about instrument flight time.
First, you ask for an interpretation of Section 61.51(c)(4) of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR) regarding the logging of instrument flight time. You ask whether, for instance, a flight over the ocean on a moonless night without a discernible horizon could be logged as actual instrument flight time.

[unrelated portion snipped]

As you know, Section 61.51(c)(4) provides rules for the logging of instrument flight time which may be used to meet the requirements of a certificate or rating, or to meet the recent flight experience requirements of Part 61. That section provides in part, that a pilot may log as instrument flight time only that time during which he or she operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments, under actual (instrument meteorological conditions (imc)) or simulated instrument flight conditions. "Simulated" instrument conditions occur when the pilot's vision outside of the aircraft is intentionally restricted, such as by a hood or goggles. "Actual" instrument flight conditions occur when some outside conditions make it necessary for the pilot to use the aircraft instruments in order to maintain adequate control over the aircraft. Typically, these conditions involve adverse weather conditions.

To answer your first question, actual instrument conditions may occur in the case you described a moonless night over the ocean with no discernible horizon, if use of the instruments is necessary to maintain adequate control over the aircraft. The determination as to whether flight by reference to instruments is necessary is somewhat subjective and based in part on the sound judgment of the pilot. Note that, under Section 61.51(b)(3), the pilot must log the conditions of the flight. The log should include the reasons for determining that the flight was under actual instrument conditions in case the pilot later would be called on to prove that the actual instrument flight time logged was legitimate.

[unrelated portion snipped]

Sincerely,
/s/
John H. Cassady
Assistant Chief counsel
Regulations and Enforcement Division
==============================
 
That's wrong. Night means:
Night means the time between the end of evening civil twilight and the beginning of morning civil twilight, as published in the American Air Almanac, converted to local time.
That's wrong. The regulation says "during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise".

I've often found both those descriptions to be confusing.

Basically I was told once night is defined as "dark."

Seems easy enough!
 
Was address by FAA Legal almost 25 years ago.

==============================
November 7, 1984
Mr. Joseph P. Carr

Dear Mr. Carr:
This is in response to your letter asking questions about instrument flight time.
First, you ask for an interpretation of Section 61.51(c)(4) of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR) regarding the logging of instrument flight time. You ask whether, for instance, a flight over the ocean on a moonless night without a discernible horizon could be logged as actual instrument flight time.

[unrelated portion snipped]

As you know, Section 61.51(c)(4) provides rules for the logging of instrument flight time which may be used to meet the requirements of a certificate or rating, or to meet the recent flight experience requirements of Part 61. That section provides in part, that a pilot may log as instrument flight time only that time during which he or she operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments, under actual (instrument meteorological conditions (imc)) or simulated instrument flight conditions. "Simulated" instrument conditions occur when the pilot's vision outside of the aircraft is intentionally restricted, such as by a hood or goggles. "Actual" instrument flight conditions occur when some outside conditions make it necessary for the pilot to use the aircraft instruments in order to maintain adequate control over the aircraft. Typically, these conditions involve adverse weather conditions.

To answer your first question, actual instrument conditions may occur in the case you described a moonless night over the ocean with no discernible horizon, if use of the instruments is necessary to maintain adequate control over the aircraft. The determination as to whether flight by reference to instruments is necessary is somewhat subjective and based in part on the sound judgment of the pilot. Note that, under Section 61.51(b)(3), the pilot must log the conditions of the flight. The log should include the reasons for determining that the flight was under actual instrument conditions in case the pilot later would be called on to prove that the actual instrument flight time logged was legitimate.

[unrelated portion snipped]

Sincerely,
/s/
John H. Cassady
Assistant Chief counsel
Regulations and Enforcement Division
==============================

Hmmmm, never knew that existed. That would would have saved countless hours of debate at the old flight school. Does that also mean that if the flight was operated under VFR (which is legal under these circumstances) then logging of instrument is still legal?

Thanks
 
cencal,

I think a couple of my points have been covered. tgrayson, midairMark and the usual suspects are, as far as my limited knowledge base is concerned, correct for meeting requirements for ratings and currency.

As a 121 pilot, however, the logging for currency is not required. So, if you have all the required time logged for the ATP, then there are several schools of thought.

1) The super-logger, who keeps the mega-clean and organized records, logs everything per the regs, and when you ask their time in type for a C172 they want to know if it's in a "N" or "SP", steam or G1000 or any matrix they can have.

2) The non-logger who prints out the flight time report at the end of the month (if they desire to take that much time out of their day) then file it somewhere.

3) The casual logger (I fit into this category). I keep my times in the mini-log, then transfer them into the big logbook. (look at is as "backing up" my logbook, if there's some issue, I'll just drop a stack of the mini-logs on the interview table). As I log in my big book, if I haven't seen any night or IMC time in a page or so, I mark some up as I attain it handflying approaches. If I'm missing some night, I'll log the night flights.

As a former interviewer, there was an unwritten no more than 10% of your total flight time was actual IMC. Obviously, someone flying a piston prop in the NE would have a much higher percentage, but you'd be surprised what people would log. I know in my log book, far less than 10% of my TT is actual, and that's just cause I'm lazy.
 
cencal,

As a 121 pilot, however, the logging for currency is not required. So, if you have all the required time logged for the ATP, then there are several schools of thought.

Just thought I'd try to clear that up a bit. Yes, no where in Part 121 does it address maintaining currency for night takeoffs and landings, which is what I believe you are addressing. (and lets face it, as freightdogs, when do most of our landings occur?) However, you do still need 3 takeoffs and landings within 90 days (day or night), even as the SIC. I mention this because I was actually caught up in this last month and had to go back to the sim for a psudo-PC for losing my 90-day currency. (Ref: 121.439)
 
Hmmmm, never knew that existed. That would would have saved countless hours of debate at the old flight school. Does that also mean that if the flight was operated under VFR (which is legal under these circumstances) then logging of instrument is still legal?

Thanks
It would appear so. Part of the confusion that is usually part of this is the precise meanings of VFR, IFR, VMC and IMC and "actual or simulated instrument flight conditions" (the words used in the logging reg)

VFR and IFR is usually pretty easy. They are just the general rules of the flight.

VMC and especially IMC cause a little problem. A lot of people use IMC and "actual" as though they mean the same thing; they don't. Both VMC and IMC refers to the cloud distance and visibility requirements in relation to the airspace. IMC really just means that the clouds and visibility requirements are less than permitted for VFR flight in that airspace. So, for example, if you are flying at 10,500 msl, 900' below an overcast where it is clear below with 100 miles visibility, you are in IMC.

Notice that the logging reg doesn't use either "rules" or "meterological". It just uses "actual or simulated instrument flight conditions" which that old Legal opinion defines for us without regard to clouds or visibility or flight rules.

So, suppose you are in that "moonless night" scenario. It's a new moon and overcast, so no stars. You are over water far enough from any shore so that, even with 10 miles visibility (if there were anything to see, such as another plane, no question you would be able to see and avoid), no land lights are visible to give you a ground reference. You are obviously in VMC, permitted to operate IFR and, according to the opinion, permitted to log instrument flight time.

And remember that we are talking the technicalities of the rules and not whether (a) it is smart or (b) if you cause some kind of problem because your skills for the situation are not up to it, the FAA won't come after you on some other basis.

It's often said that "legal is not necessarily smart." You might add that "legal is not necessarily legal."
 
cencal,

I think a couple of my points have been covered. tgrayson, midairMark and the usual suspects are, as far as my limited knowledge base is concerned, correct for meeting requirements for ratings and currency.

As a 121 pilot, however, the logging for currency is not required. So, if you have all the required time logged for the ATP, then there are several schools of thought.

1) The super-logger, who keeps the mega-clean and organized records, logs everything per the regs, and when you ask their time in type for a C172 they want to know if it's in a "N" or "SP", steam or G1000 or any matrix they can have.

2) The non-logger who prints out the flight time report at the end of the month (if they desire to take that much time out of their day) then file it somewhere.

3) The casual logger (I fit into this category). I keep my times in the mini-log, then transfer them into the big logbook. (look at is as "backing up" my logbook, if there's some issue, I'll just drop a stack of the mini-logs on the interview table). As I log in my big book, if I haven't seen any night or IMC time in a page or so, I mark some up as I attain it handflying approaches. If I'm missing some night, I'll log the night flights.

As a former interviewer, there was an unwritten no more than 10% of your total flight time was actual IMC. Obviously, someone flying a piston prop in the NE would have a much higher percentage, but you'd be surprised what people would log. I know in my log book, far less than 10% of my TT is actual, and that's just cause I'm lazy.

Alright well I appreciate everyone's inputs on this! I would probably fall somewhere between super-logger and casual logger; I haven't obviously kept up with how much time I've been in "instrument conditions" so I've only gotten about 3 hours out of the 350 or so that I've been flying for this company. The night flying, since I had that in my book before, I was able to go back, and looking at the "Almanac", figure how much night time I have. I just want a way of making what I log as exact and legit as possible.

Like I said, it has been a great help, and I'm up-to-date and where I want to be at as far as what I log. I'm not really logging the night for currency, just to know how much night flight I have, since we only do the 3 T/O and Landings within 90, and I'm plenty good on that.

:) Thanks!
 
I didn't see the word "night" in your post. On a =day= when it's clear and a million with a nice horizon plainly visible in the distance where the sky meets the sea, a pilot who needs the instruments to keep the right side up needs a little work with a CFI.

My head isn't spinning. "Need the instruments to keep the plane right side up" is just about as simple a definition of something as I've ever seen.

Yeah, I left night out. Good catch.

But it's just funny to me that you can log actual instrument in VMC.

It's just another one of those strange things that can happen in aviation, I guess.

It's like logging PIC time as an instrument student. Yes, I know, you're the sole manipulator of the controls but it strikes me as bizarre.
 
Midlifeflyer, great post! Especially the last few lines.

Oh, and I am option number 2. Printing out my times is just too much work. :D
 
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