XJT Rejects SKW's Takeover Bid

Just one last thing on unions. If you think ALPA is all bad, you really need to do research beyond what's happened in the past several years. With your hands tied by restrictive legislation and bankruptcy judges re-writing things on a whim, it's hard to fight that kind of battle and win. If you'll look into the history of ALPA, you'll see a LOT of the stuff we have today was b/c ALPA fought for it a while back. I'm not even just talking contract stuff, I'm talking safety issues. That hasn't stopped. Who's leading the runway incursion spearhead? It ain't Skywest management.
 
I think we should all step back and realize that the biggest ALPA supporter here isn't even a member of ALPA. So I really do not understand how this individual can "represent ALPA" when he isn't even a part of the union.

Just saying.

Someone earlier said something about XJT ALPA being "militant." That is very far from the truth. Our union happens to have an outstanding relationship with management. I'd venture to say our union/management relationship is very similar to the one at SkyWest. If the pilots at SkyWest want a good example of "working together" between pilot unions and those in HQ, use ExpressJet and Southwest as an example. Particularly Southwest. Here we have a company that has been studied at great extent for years by management types for an example of labor relations, yet they are one of the most unionized airlines in the nation. It seems to work... Because they breed a culture of working together. I do not see that culture dissolving at SkyWest if a union is voted on property.

Honestly, reading most of the threads here these days, even I am turned off by my own union. I am definitely not a huge pro-union type, although I do recognize the necessity for a representative body for airline pilots. I am even an ALPA volunteer. Some of the militant discussions here are downright embarrassing... and like I said, most are coming from someone who is not a member of ALPA.

Trust me, if we ever hope to accomplish our goal of unifying pilots across the industry, it will not be done in the manner which has been happening here. Nobody likes to be bullied or intimidated, especially the professionals we have here. I have worked at both a union and non-union airline, and luckily I have been able to see the benefits of membership from the inside. Coming from a great non-union airline with great pilot/managment relations, if I was getting "swayed" by the arguments here, I would be so far on the other side of the ALPA fence the damned thing would be over the horizon.

I personally hope that our union can turn things around. More importantly, I hope the volunteers that lead the drive are the complete opposite of a few select members here. We have nothing to gain by being militant. Yet we have everything to lose.

One last thing: If someone wants to be "old school" in their approach to this career, then so be it. However, those of us who are not willing to adapt to change are going to be left behind. This is not 1970. It is 2008, and these days we must take a new approach to our careers and how we do our job. Employees are being expected to do more with less... Not only to compete with ourselves, but also to compete with other nations. Those who fight change are going to get left behind.
 
FlyChicaga said:
I think we should all step back and realize that the biggest ALPA supporter here isn't even a member of ALPA. So I really do not understand how this individual can "represent ALPA" when he isn't even a part of the union.
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I've never claimed to represent ALPA anymore. In fact, I've made it clear that my posts here are my opinion only. However, I have the experience as an ALPA Officer to discuss these topics, so I will do so even though I'm no longer on ACTIVE status.
 
PCL_128 said:
I've never claimed to represent ALPA anymore. In fact, I've made it clear that my posts here are my opinion only. However, I have the experience as an ALPA Officer to discuss these topics, so I will do so even though I'm no longer on ACTIVE status.
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No, but practically every response to you makes some mention of your relationship to our union, which you are no longer a member of. I understand you have served ALPA as a representative (you make that fact very, very clear); however, you made a conscious decision to accept employment at an airline that is not represented by ALPA.

In your posts, you are expressing your personal opinions, yet we can see many of the members here associating your words with some sort of "official position" of the union. From being an ALPA member for nearly four years, I can say from my experience that this militant position is not the way our union conducts business. In fact, I find some days when your posts make me dislike my own union... Then I step back and realize that your posts are your opinion, and not those of ALPA.

I hope those at SkyWest, Colgan, and CommutAir can see that this militant attitude towards pilot/management relations is not what ALPA, nor unions, is about. Rather, union membership is about protecting the interests of pilots, not only in pay and benefits, but in regards to safety, professionalism, and the well-being of mind and body.

I think we can clearly see that this militant, old-school approach is not helping the cause of unity among pilots, considering on this very board we have lost some oustanding professionals who have a lot to offer. Bumblebee, CalCapt, Cptchia, and a few others have been driven away because some find it necessary to stand on a pedestal to push their own agenda. When the message causes division rather than unification, maybe an evaluation of the methods used to bring the group together is necessary.
 
I *heart* Expressjet because I know from experience that they are staffed by people like FlyChicaga.

Whatever happens, I hope that you guys get the treatment you deserve from whichever management.
 
whatcha talkin' bout willis? all 3 and more are still pretty active on the boards, if we don't see them, they're probably working just like Doug is or enjoying life away from the keyboard.

and to be honest, i think you're taking our forward step back 2 steps since i haven't seen any serious rhetoric or pedestal pushing as of late. believe me, our efforts in the past month have really been stepped up.

Granted, PCL talks more about the union side of things than anything else on this board but the thing to remember is that it IS his own opinion and NOT that of ALPA....and it could be that he just needs to state that more often or not talk ALPA talk at all. cuz even i get confused sometimes as to his post tone and whether or not he's technically "speaking" as an ALPA rep when he obviously is not. i guess my suggestion would be that if he's not currently ALPA, he shouldn't be talking ALPA even if he has past experience....he could however relate his airlines union experience to ALPA and talk about his own union....but if you think about it, past experience isn't what's going on now IMO. the days of past, union wise, need to change, that much we know and ALPA is taking a stand on that with their new education website and all.....maybe the best place to start is to keep the past, union wise, in the past and let those who are currently ALPA talk it out from here.


just a thought....
 
FlyChicaga said:
From being an ALPA member for nearly four years, I can say from my experience that this militant position is not the way our union conducts business. In fact, I find some days when your posts make me dislike my own union... Then I step back and realize that your posts are your opinion, and not those of ALPA.
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I think you don't even understand my own position on labor/management relations. I'm not "militant" towards management that doesn't deserve it. I'm actually pretty pro-management here at AirTran, because I think they do a great job of running the company and they don't treat the pilots like children. Pinnacle management, however, is a different story. You have to take different outlooks to different airlines. Pinnacle management views labor as the enemy, so I view them the same way. ExpressJet management views labor as a partner, so I don't have a militant attitude towards them. A one-size-fits-all approach will not work. Sometimes militancy is necessary, sometimes teamwork is necessary.

Bumblebee, CalCapt, Cptchia, and a few others have been driven away because some find it necessary to stand on a pedestal to push their own agenda.
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I don't think any of them have left. In fact, I think all of them have posted within the last day or two.
 
Kristie said:
i guess my suggestion would be that if he's not currently ALPA, he shouldn't be talking ALPA even if he has past experience
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If that is the official position of the forum admin, then please PM me and I'll be more than happy to leave. I will not, however, stop posting about the Association if I stay here.

but if you think about it, past experience isn't what's going on now IMO
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Edit: Nevermind. I don't really need to prove my credentials. I've done my bit for king and country.
 
Kristie said:
whatcha talkin' bout willis? all 3 and more are still pretty active on the boards, if we don't see them, they're probably working just like Doug is or enjoying life away from the keyboard.
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I was referring to the huge thread about Cptchia leaving, the fact CalCapt had "its been fun" as a signature (and took off for who knows how long), and bumblebee's "dormant" location and the text message I received today. But I guess they're around, so nevermind...

kristie said:
and to be honest, i think you're taking our forward step back 2 steps since i haven't seen any serious rhetoric or pedestal pushing as of late. believe me, our efforts in the past month have really been stepped up.
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Well then I apologize for undermining the efforts of the moderators. I'll keep my opinions on the subject to myself.
 
Again, Matt, I really think we need to talk in person before you make a judgement about me. I think you'll find that your current perception is way off the mark.
 
PCL_128 said:
Again, Matt, I really think we need to talk in person before you make a judgement about me. I think you'll find that your current perception is way off the mark.
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I'd be more than happy to sit down and share a beer or three with you. Do not take my response as an attack on you personally. My reply was in regards to your style of posting and how you present yourself on the forum only.

My only concern is that promoting unions using airlines like Pinnacle is not a good example when talking to pilots at airlines like SkyWest. When you have a group of pilots that is treated well and is happy, using examples learned from years of dealing with "not so great" management
does not work.

Contract negotiations and contract enforcement are two of the most heated and stressful things that union pilots face. Pilots at non-union companies do not go through that process, because pay rates are not negotiated. To explain to a group of pilots that they need a union to protect pay when they have not taken cuts is a losing battle. I think the union focus should be more positive, explaining the benefits of union membership in the GOOD times. That will be more enticing in my opinion.

Maybe I'm off base here though. I don't want to undue the path that the admin and moderators hope to take with the board by advocating this position.

I'm going to bed.
 
FlyChicaga said:
I'd be more than happy to sit down and share a beer or three with you.
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Glad to hear it. I look forward to NJC.

My only concern is that promoting unions using airlines like Pinnacle is not a good example when talking to pilots at airlines like SkyWest. When you have a group of pilots that is treated well and is happy, using examples learned from years of dealing with "not so great" management
does not work.
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I agree completely. When I worked the Skywest organizing campaign, my focus wasn't on divisive issues such as contract negotiations and termination grievances. When I worked the events, I talked to Skywest pilots about the Accident Hotline, the help that ALPA provides in the event of problems with the FAA, HIMS, the training committee, ALPA insurance, etc... There are a million different things you can talk about that don't involve any sort of militant position. When I worked the Skywest drive, that's exactly what I did.
 
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