WX What would you do?

[///AMG]

Here is a scenario for all of you folks......

Say you are flying in skosh weather, you hit bingo, RTB, wx is bad and you have to divert to your alternate. You get there and again can't break out, and now you are digging into your reserves. Being proactive (rather than trying to wait out the wx) and being down to min fuel, you declare an emergency and execute a bingo profile to plan C. Here is where my question comes in. First of all, what considerations do you have for choosing your second alternate? Let's just say that generally speaking the weather is not good within a reasonable divert range, as weather deteriorated more quickly or worse than the forecast (assuming you took off with a "legal" alternate forecast above mins). Do you try and go to a field with a PAR? Do you decide to rely on an ILS? Is there anything you look for when talking to ATC or METRO?

My take on it is that if you can't find anywhere above precision mins, then I would go to the closest divert with an ILS and plan on sticking with it. If I don't break out and I only have enough fuel for one more shot (as in flaming out on the taxi back low fuel), then at least on an ILS I trust that I can shoot it all the way down to the deck and at least plant it somewhere on the runway environment. Would anyone prefer a PAR for these purposes? My only hesitation is that I have seen how far off their guidance limits are from putting you on the runway, and I'd probably trust the ILS and myself a little more.

Thoughts? I know this is a pretty unlikely scenario, but one that has certainly happened. As a little backgroud as to where I'm coming from on this, most of my flights as of late have terminated nearly at mins with our local alternate (KMEI) generally just as bad. Our standard matrix would put us on a bingo profile to either Jackson, Columbus or maybe Montgomery/Maxwell and pretty much any of those would be very close fuel wise if we didn't make an extremely early decision to go there. With the more widespread low weather patterns lately, it is not inconceivable that one or more of those fields would be at or below mins simultaneously.

 

[MikeD]

Here is a scenario for all of you folks......

Say you are flying in skosh weather, you hit bingo, RTB, wx is bad and you have to divert to your alternate. You get there and again can't break out, and now you are digging into your reserves. Being proactive (rather than trying to wait out the wx) and being down to min fuel, you declare an emergency and execute a bingo profile to plan C. Here is where my question comes in. First of all, what considerations do you have for choosing your second alternate? Let's just say that generally speaking the weather is not good within a reasonable divert range, as weather deteriorated more quickly or worse than the forecast (assuming you took off with a "legal" alternate forecast above mins). Do you try and go to a field with a PAR? Do you decide to rely on an ILS? Is there anything you look for when talking to ATC or METRO?

My take on it is that if you can't find anywhere above precision mins, then I would go to the closest divert with an ILS and plan on sticking with it. If I don't break out and I only have enough fuel for one more shot (as in flaming out on the taxi back low fuel), then at least on an ILS I trust that I can shoot it all the way down to the deck and at least plant it somewhere on the runway environment. Would anyone prefer a PAR for these purposes? My only hesitation is that I have seen how far off their guidance limits are from putting you on the runway, and I'd probably trust the ILS and myself a little more.

Thoughts? I know this is a pretty unlikely scenario, but one that has certainly happened. As a little backgroud as to where I'm coming from on this, most of my flights as of late have terminated nearly at mins with our local alternate (KMEI) generally just as bad. Our standard matrix would put us on a bingo profile to either Jackson, Columbus or maybe Montgomery/Maxwell and pretty much any of those would be very close fuel wise if we didn't make an extremely early decision to go there. With the more widespread low weather patterns lately, it is not inconceivable that one or more of those fields would be at or below mins simultaneously.

It all depends on a number of factors, namely how much fuel I have to play with. In a jet, it's not always an option to be hanging around low-altitude and shooting approaches to the primary or the divert, generally one or two at each. For the second divert I'd personally prefer a PAR, as the mins are generally half ceiling and half viz from an ILS (100 1/4 usually, as compared to 200 1/2) and I trust good PAR controllers, esp with the tolerance of a PAR being 25 feet either side of runway centerline. If possible, an ILS with PAR monitor would be good, but nost USN jets aren't ILS equipped, IIRC? ATC I'd depend on more than looking up the freq and trying to contact the METRO for the field I intend on going to.....ATC can generally get you the info faster than the METRO WX person can, and you might not be within their UHF range to call anyway.

Knowing the WX down around where we are this time of year (I'm not too far from you at Ft Rucker), prior planning is a must.

 

[///AMG]

If possible, an ILS with PAR monitor would be good, but nost USN jets aren't ILS equipped, IIRC?

Correct, the T-45 being an anomaly among Navy jets. Good info on the en route wx, as I have yet to really NEED to contact anyone (ATIS has normally been enough for my purposes). Just a thought I had today coming back from a wx incomplete.....I think we get into the mindset that places like Jackson surely will be okay if home plate is not, but that may not always be the case, and we just don't have 10k+ #'s of fuel to play with like the fleet guys do (hell we take off at a fuel weight that would make many grey jet drivers nervous )

 

[MikeD]

Correct, the T-45 being an anomaly among Navy jets. Good info on the en route wx, as I have yet to really NEED to contact anyone (ATIS has normally been enough for my purposes). Just a thought I had today coming back from a wx incomplete.....I think we get into the mindset that places like Jackson surely will be okay if home plate is not, but that may not always be the case, and we just don't have 10k+ #'s of fuel to play with like the fleet guys do (hell we take off at a fuel weight that would make many grey jet drivers nervous )

Agree. Just today I took off from Cairns, field was 700-4. 10 miles west of the field it became sky obscured, viz about a mile (luckily, all I need is clear of clouds). Ended up having to drop down and pick around back to the field, but that was a UH-1. Could've been sportier in a jet if wx was worse, where fuel (or lack of it) is a consideration, and you can't just land anywhere. That's one of the biggest fixed-wing crossover bad-habits I've had to break: that for WX or for an emergency, "suitable airfield" isn't always an actual airport, it can be a farmers field if need be.

 

[falconvalley]

I proceeded to my 3rd choice for an alternate one time. After missing out of my alternate and ATC's first suggestion after that, I remembered being able to see where the wall of fog stopped to the north. I whipped open my enroute chart and found a good candidate. Works for that scenario, but if weather is bad just about everywhere, hopefully you put enough fuel onboard to go somewhere were you are 99% sure weather will cooperate.

If I found myself in a situation where I didn't have the fuel to go much farther and everything was mins or below, I'd ask where anyone is getting in nearby. Whether or not there is such a place, if I'm on my last approach, it's stable all the way to the runway (hopefully a long, wide one). I'm not a military pilot, though.

 

[MikeD]

I proceeded to my 3rd choice for an alternate one time. After missing out of my alternate and ATC's first suggestion after that, I remembered being able to see where the wall of fog stopped to the north. I whipped open my enroute chart and found a good candidate. Works for that scenario, but if weather is bad just about everywhere, hopefully you put enough fuel onboard to go somewhere were you are 99% sure weather will cooperate.

If I found myself in a situation where I didn't have the fuel to go much farther and everything was mins or below, I'd ask where anyone is getting in nearby. Whether or not there is such a place, if I'm on my last approach, it's stable all the way to the runway (hopefully a long, wide one). I'm not a military pilot, though.

Good plan here. Only limiting factor for mil tactical jets is the horrendous fuel consumption, and limited amount available.

 

[Blackhawk]

I know of several cases of something like this happening.
1. Personal one. Recovering to Cairns in a UH-1. WX was supposed to be VFR, but I started hearing aircraft call missed approach. I asked ATC about this and was told a special was coming out... 200 1/4. While getting vectored for the ILS my 20 minute light came on even though the gauge said I had 1 hour of fuel. I now had a choice... believe the gauge and head to my alternate while hoping I did not flame out, or believe the light and shoot an approach to the runway. I decided on the latter but fortunately broke out at 100'.
2. OV-1 during Desert Storm could not get in due to dust storms. I believe the crew punched out.
3. I know of at least one pilot who had to shoot a 0/0 ILS to the ground due to a fuel emergency in Germany.

 

[ppragman]

I know of several cases of something like this happening.
1. Personal one. Recovering to Cairns in a UH-1. WX was supposed to be VFR, but I started hearing aircraft call missed approach. I asked ATC about this and was told a special was coming out... 200 1/4. While getting vectored for the ILS my 20 minute light came on even though the gauge said I had 1 hour of fuel. I now had a choice... believe the gauge and head to my alternate while hoping I did not flame out, or believe the light and shoot an approach to the runway. I decided on the latter but fortunately broke out at 100'.
2. OV-1 during Desert Storm could not get in due to dust storms. I believe the crew punched out.
3. I know of at least one pilot who had to shoot a 0/0 ILS to the ground due to a fuel emergency in Germany.

Not a military pilot, so not sure of the rules...but:

I know multiple guys up here who have been coming back from out Dutch Harbor (PADU airport) or Bethel, and have had the ice fog roll in on them, or had the weather change so fast and unpredictably that they weren't required to have an alternate when they left and got to the destination field with essentially 45mins of fuel or less after holding and found it to be zero-zero. They've all told me to basically "GET IT ON THE GROUND!" if you're close to flameout.

One captain in particular told me that if he was closing in on declaring a low fuel emergency he just wasn't going missed. Though its not standard, and its definitely an emergency only kind of situation, I would strongly recommend getting it on the ground no matter what unless you have an alternate that's only a safe distance away with good weather. What's better, flaming out on the taxi way at an airport that's below mins after flying the zero-zero ils to the ground, or flaming out on the missed from that airport and having to play "where am I going to put it in this fog".

Another solution (though not necessarily standard depending on how far you take it) is always carry extra fuel, "the only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire" seems to be a good idea in principal. Flying in Kodiak (this was VFR mind you, so things were a bit different) but we always tried to have enough gas to fly all the way around the island in the tanks when we left. As soon as your fuel dries up, your options rapidly decrease. If you've gotten down to the point where you're having to make a decision like "bust mins, or flame out in the fog IMC enroute to my alternate," then chances are you've already made a potentially fatal error in the planning stages of your flight, or enroute, just my $.02.

 

[///AMG]

Another solution (though not necessarily standard depending on how far you take it) is always carry extra fuel, "the only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire" seems to be a good idea in principal. Flying in Kodiak (this was VFR mind you, so things were a bit different) but we always tried to have enough gas to fly all the way around the island in the tanks when we left. As soon as your fuel dries up, your options rapidly decrease. If you've gotten down to the point where you're having to make a decision like "bust mins, or flame out in the fog IMC enroute to my alternate," then chances are you've already made a potentially fatal error in the planning stages of your flight, or enroute, just my $.02.

I was kind of getting at this in the original post. We have strict guidelines in terms of alternate requirements, and SOP requirements for fuel reserves.....and all of our "bingo" profiles also include a reserve useable for an approach or two. That said, I guess my question was more oriented to the less likely scenario when all the good planning went out the window, and the weather did the unexpected. It certainly has here recently, and I guess it kind of got me thinking. When we go out for training flights, we aren't necissarily going from pt A to pt B, and due to fuel consumption up in the working areas (in order to complete the mission), we are pretty geographically limited in terms of where we can divert to once we knock off the training and head home (for us it is generally a 100-150 NM range with the fuel numbers we normally use for a baseline of when to head home).

I absolutely agree that if you can't break out and you don't have fuel to go somewhere else, you may as well use the approach you already have at your disposal......having flown both ILS and PAR's (well at least to 100' or so) to the deck in VMC conditions, I would bet my life on them if I had no other options.

 

[rpfeif]

Correct, the T-45 being an anomaly among Navy jets.

Stupid question from the primary guy...If no ILS then what do the grey birds use besides PARs for precision approachs, CONUS or at the boat.

 

[///AMG]

Stupid question from the primary guy...If no ILS then what do the grey birds use besides PARs for precision approachs, CONUS or at the boat.

Only going off second hand info here, but basically nothing. They have the ability to paint the runway environment with radar and shoot a self contained approach down to the runway, but I don't know if this is used much in CONUS. At the boat, they have 2 different systems that are analagous to the ILS (maybe Bunk can clarify this), but they are not compatible with civil ILS approaches.

 

[Blackhawk]

Another solution (though not necessarily standard depending on how far you take it) is always carry extra fuel, "the only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire" seems to be a good idea in principal. Flying in Kodiak (this was VFR mind you, so things were a bit different) but we always tried to have enough gas to fly all the way around the island in the tanks when we left. As soon as your fuel dries up, your options rapidly decrease. If you've gotten down to the point where you're having to make a decision like "bust mins, or flame out in the fog IMC enroute to my alternate," then chances are you've already made a potentially fatal error in the planning stages of your flight, or enroute, just my $.02.

Not always an option. In all the cases I mentioned the aircraft had full tanks and plenty of reserve. In my case I had a 1 hour reserve for forecast VFR conditions but it suddenly appeared I might only have 20 minutes (it ended up being a bad low fuel sensor but I had no way of knowing).
I almost forgot another case.
A flight of two UH-60s from my unit in Iraq ran into an unforecast sand storm (yeah, I know... no surprise there). Visibility dropped to near 0 so they landed in what they thought was the open desert as the nearest airfield with an approach was Basra- right at their fuel range using maximum range airspeed. The sand storm lifted just a little and they saw that they were not in the open desert, but right between two villages. Men started to poor out of the mosques with weapons. The crews were left with two options. Stay and fight and risk winding up on Al Jazzier television in orange jump suits, or bug out. They chose the latter and immediately went IMC as soon as they lifted off. They both decided to climb up and head for Basra. Both aircraft had to shoot ILSs to below minimums- a missed approach was not an option. I don't remember how much fuel they had when they landed, but one aircraft flamed out while taxiing in to parking.

 

[ppragman]

Not always an option. In all the cases I mentioned the aircraft had full tanks and plenty of reserve. In my case I had a 1 hour reserve for forecast VFR conditions but it suddenly appeared I might only have 20 minutes (it ended up being a bad low fuel sensor but I had no way of knowing).
I almost forgot another case.
A flight of two UH-60s from my unit in Iraq ran into an unforecast sand storm (yeah, I know... no surprise there). Visibility dropped to near 0 so they landed in what they thought was the open desert as the nearest airfield with an approach was Basra- right at their fuel range using maximum range airspeed. The sand storm lifted just a little and they saw that they were not in the open desert, but right between two villages. Men started to poor out of the mosques with weapons. The crews were left with two options. Stay and fight and risk winding up on Al Jazzier television in orange jump suits, or bug out. They chose the latter and immediately went IMC as soon as they lifted off. They both decided to climb up and head for Basra. Both aircraft had to shoot ILSs to below minimums- a missed approach was not an option. I don't remember how much fuel they had when they landed, but one aircraft flamed out while taxiing in to parking.

Very true, and if you have some sort of extenuating circumstance, like angry armed men coming to kill you, then get your ass in the air. I trust IMC a lot more than I think I'd trust gunfire.

Do you guys personally fuel the airplane, or just order fuel (serious question) and is it even possible in the blackhawk to visually verify quantity before departure (you still have to stick with the light because you could have a leak somewhere, just as somewhat of a non-sequitor)

 

[Blackhawk]

Very true, and if you have some sort of extenuating circumstance, like angry armed men coming to kill you, then get your ass in the air. I trust IMC a lot more than I think I'd trust gunfire.

Do you guys personally fuel the airplane, or just order fuel (serious question) and is it even possible in the blackhawk to visually verify quantity before departure (you still have to stick with the light because you could have a leak somewhere, just as somewhat of a non-sequitor)

Someone else fuels us. No way to visually confirm the fuel, but the fuel gauges are much more accurate than in GA aircraft. Same with transport aircraft. We had floatsticks in the airlines, but they were very complicated to use. I think after the Gimli Glider our company felt it was better to take a maintenance delay and fix it rather than MEL the fuel indicator. I never heard of anyone flying with it deferred.