would you consider this semantics?

RetiredATLATC

RetiredATLATC

Well-Known Member
I would have to guess at least 100 times a day I give this clearance, or hear this clearance given, "DAL/CACTUS/SOUTHWEST/etcetera, radar contact, cancel/delete (STILS/KLEGG/HYZMN etc) (my spelling is off) speed" and inevitably the read back is, "cancel HYZMN" or "cancel the speed at HYZMN" which the SID tells you to do anyway. It may be semantics to you, but to me now I don't know what you're doing. Are you wiping HYZMN off your SID and taking a sharp turn where I don't want you to go, or are you going to do as I've asked or maybe not speed up until HYZMN because you said "cancel the speed at HYZMN .

IMHO, after 27+ years I've seen phraseology gone to pot, on both ends.

Anyone else see this or am I being nitpicky?
 
Generally, ATL will say "Cancel the speed at HYZMN" and we'll just delete the speed constraint/restriction. We generally won't "delete" the waypoint and generally only respond to "cleared direct" or "after (waypoint) fly direct to (waypoint)"
 
Not to be nitpicky, but if someone says "cancel the speed AT HYZMN," you should still be maintaining 250 knots until HYZMN... Maybe we should just be uniform across the board and say something like "delete the HYZMN speed restriction" and expect a word for word read back accordingly.
 
RobertB said:
Not to be nitpicky, but if someone says "cancel the speed AT HYZMN," you should still be maintaining 250 knots until HYZMN... Maybe we should just be uniform across the board and say something like "delete the HYZMN speed restriction" and expect a word for word read back accordingly.
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Agreed Stewey, but even if you say "delete the HYZMN speed" the next read back is "delete HYZMN" or "delete the speed at HYZMN". What's wrong with just reading back the clearance verbatum?
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I always just responded "cancel the speed restriction at HYZMN." I would agree that "cancel HYZMN" is way too ambiguous.
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But doesn't that beg the question, are you waiting until HYZMN to speed up, or deleting HYZMN speed AMD speeding up when you reach 10000?
 
A80TRACON said:
But doesn't that beg the question, are you waiting until HYZMN to speed up, or deleting HYZMN speed AMD speeding up when you reach 10000?
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Just be very specific and adhere to the phraseology and we'll be best friends 4 ever.

One of my pet peeves are the "localisms" some of the controllers have. I really don't know what some are talking about and I really don't want to assume.
 
Derg said:
Just be very specific and adhere to the phraseology and we'll be best friends 4 ever.

One of my pet peeves are the "localisms" some of the controllers have. I really don't know what some are talking about and I really don't want to assume.
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I agree localisms are bs. Controllers have the "book" and if you follow it it'll save time, is safe, and keeps you out of court.

The problem is, at least for me, I AM specific but the readbacks I get are crap, Derg. Example; I'm short of being down the crapper, a dozen or so aircraft buzzing like hornets, "Airline123, contact XXX Center on 124.45 . Response. "See ya". WTF? Who just said that, should I just guess?
 
Fully agree. I hear that a lot too and it needs to stop because it's an opportunity to mitigate error.

I had an FO that would say things like "2-4-OH 2-5-OH, 123" and he got grumpy when I said I would like a standard readback. But that's ok? ;)

Ok, are you going to:
Descend to FL240 and decelerate to 250 knots?
Descend to FL250 and decelerate to 240 knots?

And there might be three other 123's out there from different airlines, how does the controller know if you heard him correctly and that the correct person received the instruction?
 
A80TRACON said:
But doesn't that beg the question, are you waiting until HYZMN to speed up, or deleting HYZMN speed AMD speeding up when you reach 10000?
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If I'm deleting the speed restriction, then the airplane will automatically speed up to normal climb speed upon reaching 10k. Unless there's a speed restriction at a fix up ahead in the box, then it will do what it normally does on speeds.
 
A80TRACON said:
I agree localisms are bs. Controllers have the "book" and if you follow it it'll save time, is safe, and keeps you out of court.

The problem is, at least for me, I AM specific but the readbacks I get are crap, Derg. Example; I'm short of being down the crapper, a dozen or so aircraft buzzing like hornets, "Airline123, contact XXX Center on 124.45 . Response. "See ya". WTF? Who just said that, should I just guess?
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You'll get (frequency) (callsign) and (good day/bye meow/goodnight) out of me; I don't like being frequency lost.

Derg said:
Fully agree. I hear that a lot too and it needs to stop because it's an opportunity to mitigate error.

I had an FO that would say things like "2-4-OH 2-5-OH, 123" and he got grumpy when I said I would like a standard readback. But that's ok? ;)

Ok, are you going to:
Descend to FL240 and decelerate to 250 knots?
Descend to FL250 and decelerate to 240 knots?

And there might be three other 123's out there from different airlines, how does the controller know if you heard him correctly and that the correct person received the instruction?
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Ugh. I'm a stupid regional pilot and I know how to read back instructions. Radio professionalism is a big deal to me; as lazy as I can get with it, headings, altitudes, airspeeds all have to be read back and everything else gets a general idea of what you've asked me to do. WITH A FULL CALL SIGN, thank you very much!

While on the subject of stupid and nonstandard ways of doing things, it does happen both directions:
"Tabernacle 6737, 'lanta approach, one eighty squared."
"Say again, Tabernacle 6737?"
"That's heading one eighty, speed one eighty."
1a4.jpg
 
Another favorite, "turn left heading one eight zero", airline xyz "roger one eight oh". Now I'm thinking is he climbing to FL180, speeding up or slowing down to 180 kts or taking the heading. That's why ALL my headings end in a 5, it can never be confused for an altitude. I've seen too many aircraft flying through the north south ATL corridor readback "one eight oh" and start a climb through the north and south downwind to ATL.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
While on the subject of stupid and nonstandard ways of doing things, it does happen both directions:
"Tabernacle 6737, 'lanta approach, one eighty squared."
"Say again, Tabernacle 6737?"
"That's heading one eighty, speed one eighty."
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Been at ATL TRACON 17 years and never heard that, and that's a good thing because if I had there would have been some B slapping going on.
 
A80TRACON said:
Been at ATL TRACON 17 years and never heard that, and that's a good thing because if I had there would have been some B slapping going on.
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It's happened. I don't remember If it was you guys or another facility with the southern drawl, but I've personally been given that.
 
Bad phraseology gets people killed.

People who try to sound "cool" issuing clearances are less than intelligent individuals...

Save the casual conversation for casual conversation, when issuing clearances, use ICAO standard when /where applicable.

Good RT reduces incidents, it's a fact, any of those clearances in the OP are wrong, it's so easy to issue clearances correctly, why people try using shortcuts is beyond me.
 
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