Why UND doesn't log PIC time

eh, while legal, I still dont like it. Pilot in command is the person who is making the final decisions in the flight. Believe it or not, that is your instructor, not the student, regardless of what ratings you have.
 
Screaming_Emu said:
eh, while legal, I still dont like it. Pilot in command is the person who is making the final decisions in the flight. Believe it or not, that is your instructor, not the student, regardless of what ratings you have.
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Then who is the sole manipulator of the flight controls?
 
Screaming_Emu said:
eh, while legal, I still dont like it. Pilot in command is the person who is making the final decisions in the flight. Believe it or not, that is your instructor, not the student, regardless of what ratings you have.
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This is a good point, here is another discussion I will throw out there. What is the definition of PIC as it is defined in CFR 14 Part 1? What is the definition of PIC as it is defined in CFR 14 Part 61? All employers out there are looking for PIC as defined in Part 1 when they list a PIC time requirement for a job. A few years ago UND revised their Policies and Procedures manual to identify the Certified Flight Instructor on board a training flight as the PIC defined by Part 1.

To parallel this argument from the real world. I am type rated in the airplane that I currently fly. The other pilot I am flying with is type rated as well. When it is my leg to fly, I don't log any of it as PIC, even though I am typed in the aircraft and I am the sole manipulator of the flight controls. According to Part 1, I am not the PIC, but according to Part 61 I am.

I am just trying to point out some arguments to get you guys thinking a little. You have to make the decision on how you want to log your flight time, but you also need to be able to back up your decision when the time comes. I personally choose to err on the side of conservative and have never had any problems. I have been through a few airline interviews and a couple fractional interviews as well, all resulted in a job offer at the end. At the regional airline level they generally will not scrutinize your logbook that much depending on the company. They are quite good at picking up glaring errors or "embellished" flight time! Keep in mind though, all regional airlines suck to work at and are not career type jobs. You will hopefully one day be interviewing for something bigger and better and the question may come up.
 
eglplt said:
This is a good point, here is another discussion I will throw out there. What is the definition of PIC as it is defined in CFR 14 Part 1? What is the definition of PIC as it is defined in CFR 14 Part 61? All employers out there are looking for PIC as defined in Part 1 when they list a PIC time requirement for a job. A few years ago UND revised their Policies and Procedures manual to identify the Certified Flight Instructor on board a training flight as the PIC defined by Part 1.

To parallel this argument from the real world. I am type rated in the airplane that I currently fly. The other pilot I am flying with is type rated as well. When it is my leg to fly, I don't log any of it as PIC, even though I am typed in the aircraft and I am the sole manipulator of the flight controls. According to Part 1, I am not the PIC, but according to Part 61 I am.

I am just trying to point out some arguments to get you guys thinking a little. You have to make the decision on how you want to log your flight time, but you also need to be able to back up your decision when the time comes. I personally choose to err on the side of conservative and have never had any problems. I have been through a few airline interviews and a couple fractional interviews as well, all resulted in a job offer at the end. At the regional airline level they generally will not scrutinize your logbook that much depending on the company. They are quite good at picking up glaring errors or "embellished" flight time! Keep in mind though, all regional airlines suck to work at and are not career type jobs. You will hopefully one day be interviewing for something bigger and better and the question may come up.
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Blah, blah, blah :)

How you log the flight time is completely up to you, how you report it to an interview board is up to the board. If they only want to see PIC + SIC + DUAL REC. = TT then so be it. If they question you, which I doubt anyone would, a simple answer is all that is needed, "that is how I chose to log my flight time". You aren't being dishonest, puffing flight times, etc, you are logging what you are legally allowed to log.

In both of my airline interviews (not that many I know) my logbooks have never even been looked at, just my resume with total time and such and some questions.

There are more reasons to log PIC than just for interviews; insurance is one example, unless they specify part 1 definintions.
 
eglplt said:
I am sure they do. My whole point was how valuable is it really? I don't think that PIC time while receiving dual in a single engine Piper is that valuable at all, especially the small amount of time he will gain in his logbook by doing this. Remember, it is about quality not necessarily quantity.
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Wasn't there a thread on here recently about some people being short of PIC time when it came time to upgrade? I think it mostly applied to the very low timers getting hired (Mesa, etc.), and Gulfstream, but I think we also had some people point out situations they had seen/heard about people having to go rent an airplane to get the remainder of PIC time.

Just some food for thought...myself personally, I log what I can legally log. If a company wants to see specific numbers of Part 1 PIC while in a Cessna above 2,000 AGL and on an IFR flight plan, without eating a sandwich, then if I want the job, I'll figure out a way to tell them the amount of time in those conditions. Otherwise, they're getting what I legally logged.

YMMV

TX
 
Dugie8 said:
There are more reasons to log PIC than just for interviews; insurance is one example, unless they specify part 1 definintions.
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This is a good point and a very valid one, but Saxman mentioned he wanted to add the time for a job that required a certain amount of PIC time. Once again I stress, log what ever makes you happy it's your logbook in the end! I just want to make sure this young lad has all pertinent information in order to make his decision, especially since he use to be one of my students.
 
eglplt said:
This is a good point and a very valid one, but Saxman mentioned he wanted to add the time for a job that required a certain amount of PIC time. Once again I stress, log what ever makes you happy it's your logbook in the end! I just want to make sure this young lad has all pertinent information in order to make his decision, especially since he use to be one of my students.
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Oh christ, he's doomed already.....
 
eglplt said:
You are only going to be able to log 221, 222, 323, 414, and 415. How much PIC time are you really going to gain by doing this? I don't think you would even exceed 150 hours at best...
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Are you really even considered PIC of the aircraft though in 221 and 222 when you are flying under the hood almost the entire time? Also, in 323, you don't have the complex endorsement for the first half of the course...
 
eglplt said:
This is a good point and a very valid one, but Saxman mentioned he wanted to add the time for a job that required a certain amount of PIC time. Once again I stress, log what ever makes you happy it's your logbook in the end! I just want to make sure this young lad has all pertinent information in order to make his decision, especially since he use to be one of my students.
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I am screwed. :) Especially since 3 of my instructors have gone to Eagle, and I can't figure out which one it is....My guess is Troy, but it could be Trent.
 
airplanerik said:
Are you really even considered PIC of the aircraft though in 221 and 222 when you are flying under the hood almost the entire time? Also, in 323, you don't have the complex endorsement for the first half of the course...
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Yes because you are the sole manipulator of the flight controls.
 
saxman66 said:
I am screwed. :) Especially since 3 of my instructors have gone to Eagle, and I can't figure out which one it is....My guess is Troy, but it could be Trent.
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Hey Chris,

I will give you a little hint, I'm not at Eagle anymore. If you look close at my avatar, you will see my new ride. Who was the third one to go there? I am glad to hear you got a job at Auburn, I hear they have a good flight school. Any plans to get back to the DFW area anytime soon?
 
airplanerik said:
Are you really even considered PIC of the aircraft though in 221 and 222 when you are flying under the hood almost the entire time? Also, in 323, you don't have the complex endorsement for the first half of the course...
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You are correct about 323. Until you have the endorsement you can't log it.
 
eglplt said:
You are correct about 323. Until you have the endorsement you can't log it.
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wrong. the arrow is airplane single engine land, just like the warrior, ce-150, ce-172, ce-182, etc etc etc etc.

after i learned the rules, i went back and logged everything except seminole time as PIC from the beginning of 221. i loved the look on the faces of my 414 and 415 instructors when they'd fill out my logbook and then watch me put the numbers in the PIC column as they handed it over. i won't mention any names. fun times.
 
eglplt said:
You are correct about 323. Until you have the endorsement you can't log it.
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I am incorrect, you can log the time as PIC, you just can't act as PIC until the endorsment. I need to quit this thread, I have been away from instructing way too long!
 
I had a talk with my instructor about this. She was not supportive of the idea of logging PIC time and implied it is the gray areas of the FARs. I am not sure, but I will try to bring this thread to her attention.
 
Dj To Rule said:
I had a talk with my instructor about this. She was not supportive of the idea of logging PIC time and implied it is the gray areas of the FARs. I am not sure, but I will try to bring this thread to her attention.
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Probably because that's just how she was raised. If that's what she was told during training that's what she'll support. Others who were told to log the PIC time will swear by that.

Bottom line, it's YOUR logbook, not your instructors. If the FARs say you can log it, do it if you want to.
 
Dj To Rule said:
I had a talk with my instructor about this. She was not supportive of the idea of logging PIC time and implied it is the gray areas of the FARs. I am not sure, but I will try to bring this thread to her attention.
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Who is your instructor?
 
Screaming_Emu said:
Most of the time its me, but not always. Also, manipulating the controls is the easy part of being PIC.
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you can always deduct .1 or .2 if the instructor is introducing something or takes a lap around the pattern.
 
stuckingfk said:
Who is your instructor?
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Paula Rauum, Lead flight instructor.

Definitley a great instructor so far.. never went wrong for me with leads but this logbook thing is definitley something I can see debates on.

I'll try to get her valid points in too to see the other end of the view.

:yar:
 
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