Why report the hold in radar environment?

Most likely to remind the controller. A lot of those mandatory calls in a radar environment are to remind the controller I would imagine. I mean, a hold can cover quite a large section of airspace (depending on the wind) and you are just sitting there circling (or ovaling) around. He could potentially put another aircraft in the same hold as you should you not remind him. Then again he could put another a/c in even with the reminder. Maybe post this on the atc forum too and see what they think.
 
Do you ATC guys know why we are required to report entering the hold while in radar environment? Is it just to remind the controller?
 
I usually call when entering, although I prob only hold once every 3 months or so.

I am generally greeted with a Thank You.
 
I ask to "report when established in holding" for two reasons one to remind myself and two to give an "expect further clearance time." I personally don't like to give an efc when I give holding clearance b/c of the pilot training might take a good majority of the time just getting into the holding pattern if they are practicing ifr. Believe me I have seen some very intresting holding pattern entries compared to the standard ones.
 
I typically like the report because we have to pass all hold times on to our supervisor and the next sector that will work the aircraft. It also helps us keep track of how long you have been holding for so we can continue to push TMU or who ever to get you out of the hold. If you do not report into the hold, no big deal, we may ask when leaving the hold how long you held for. I don't know if you guys always keep track, but I assume you do, so that info is really all we need.

When/if ERAM ever comes to the centers you will no longer need to report in the hold. Once we enter that you are going to hold the system will automatically start calculating your hold once you get to the holding fix. Also, it will indicate to us when you enter the holding fix. The times will be presented to the supervisor and all hold data can be obtained automatically. Sometime this decade that system will be up and running.
 
Don't mean to hijack the thread but in a similair vein, how about the call to ATC when you've been given discretion for a descent or a crossing restriction and you report "airplane 1234 leaving flight level three-five-zero"? From my observations about 90% of pro pilots do not make this call, however the other 10% pretty seem to be adamant about it.

As we all know, sometimes center frequencies can be very busy. Is this considered a worthwhile call, or are is it a needless transmission assuming a radar environment?
 
I don't know for sure, but my guess is that's it's related to ATC authority to reduce some forms of separation once and aircraft is established in a hold. See FAA Order 7130.3 (Holding Patterns).
 
Alchemy said:
Don't mean to hijack the thread but in a similair vein, how about the call to ATC when you've been given discretion for a descent or a crossing restriction and you report "airplane 1234 leaving flight level three-five-zero"? From my observations about 90% of pro pilots do not make this call, however the other 10% pretty seem to be adamant about it.

As we all know, sometimes center frequencies can be very busy. Is this considered a worthwhile call, or are is it a needless transmission assuming a radar environment?
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Unless you're specifically asked to provide the report, it is a useless transmission. We can't assign a vacated altitude in a pilot's discretion descent, so there's not much that can be used with the information. In such a situation we have to have minimum separation established (en route, 5 miles or 1000') before the altitude occupied by aircraft A, on a pilot's discretion descent, can be assigned to aircraft B.

If someone elects to start down rather late, it may keep a pilot from hearing, "start down now, please" but that's about it.
 
Alchemy said:
Don't mean to hijack the thread but in a similair vein, how about the call to ATC when you've been given discretion for a descent or a crossing restriction and you report "airplane 1234 leaving flight level three-five-zero"? From my observations about 90% of pro pilots do not make this call, however the other 10% pretty seem to be adamant about it.

As we all know, sometimes center frequencies can be very busy. Is this considered a worthwhile call, or are is it a needless transmission assuming a radar environment?
Click to expand...

On the contrary I notice a split on the pro pilots. The majority of "older" pilots make the call. UPS, FEDEX, United, American, Delta, etc almost always report leaving. Its about 30/70 with the regionals. I would say the majority of the time I do not get a report leaving from regional carriers and 50/50 from GA.

Most of the time I do not mind the report and prefer it because it is a reminder you have the crossing. Since the majority of crossings I give are to meet an LOA/SOP when I notice an aircraft with a crossing leave altitude, I'll switch them to the next sector either when they report leaving or I see on the radar they are leaving their previous altitude. The report helps me get you off the frequency quicker. It's not that helpful though since in my scan I'll see you leave altitude, so if I am rattling out clearance after clearance I prefer you NOT make that transmission in a radar environment.
 
Great, thanks for the responses, fellas.

When I first started with my current airline I always made the "vacating XXX" call, but over time I noticed most captains did not say anything when they were working the radios so I stopped doing it too. Plus, I noticed that most of the time, when I made it, it usually made the controller ask "say again?" then an "oh....ok...thanks?".

Nowadays, every once in awhile I'll fly with an FO who'll insists that I say something when they start their descents...."i'm starting down now, you gonna tell them?". Weird, eh?
 
rherrick said:
Believe me I have seen some very intresting holding pattern entries compared to the standard ones.
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I cannot remember for certain, but I believe it was the Kings who described the four entry patterns for holding. Direct, tear drop, parallel, and small intestine. The first three are well documented procedures. The fourth is when the pilot attempts to draw a picture of a small intestine on the controller's screen.
 
Alchemy said:
Don't mean to hijack the thread but in a similair vein, how about the call to ATC when you've been given discretion for a descent or a crossing restriction and you report "airplane 1234 leaving flight level three-five-zero"? From my observations about 90% of pro pilots do not make this call, however the other 10% pretty seem to be adamant about it.

As we all know, sometimes center frequencies can be very busy. Is this considered a worthwhile call, or are is it a needless transmission assuming a radar environment?
Click to expand...

Great question......I'm one of the 10%, so I'd like to know as well.

Edit: Nevermind, I see it's been answered.
 
Aeronautical Information Manual (AIM), Chapter 5, Section 3, paragraph 5-3-3 a 1 (a).
 
I'm a CFII too, but there's by the book and then there's real world when it comes to ATC communication, and while I strive to stick with the former sometimes the latter is all you can do. Just go to O'hare and taxi around for a little while if you want to discover that concept. The ATC guys on here said themselves that "leaving" a useless call most of the time. If they don't want it, and if 90% of the time they act confused and annoyed when I do it, why should I continue to make it? I think the AIM needs to be amended for the sake of alleviating frequency congestion in this instance.

Most of the other items on that list in 5-3-3 are somewhat unsual occurences....not being able to climb at 500fpm, holding, pulling the speed way back, etc. Conversely, leaving one assigned altitude for another is extremely routine, expected, and happens 3-4 times per flight sometimes. Also notice the AIM says "should", not "must" ;) Somehow I doubt Washington center would be real thrilled with my airmanship if I said "leaving flight level for three five zero for flight two seven zero", "leaving flight level two seven zero for flight for one three thousand", "leaving one three thousand for one one thousand", and "leaving one one thousand for eight thousand" every time I flew the PHLBO2 into EWR.

.....but if I get feedback from the ATC guys on here that I really should be making the call like I used to, I'll start doing it again.
 
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