Which is better SIC or PIC?

S

Sith

New Member
New on this forum and looking for a bit of advice.

I'm a European with FAA ratings. Whilst I'm studying for me JAA ATPL's I want to do a FO program in the US. In Europe the carriers like multi-crew certified aircraft (like Shorts 360). However, if I flew this type of aircraft in the US it would only be SIC even though I might fly the leg as PIC.

There are some operators that fly single pilot certified aircraft (like B-99) as a multi-crew allowing the FO to log PIC on his flying leg.

If there was a possibility to work in the US or other FAA country which would be seen as more valuable? PIC is a lighter, single-pilot certified aircraft (albeit in a multi environment) or SIC in a heavier, multi-cert. aircraft?

Thank you in advance.

Please note that I do not wish to open a debate about PFT.
 
If you are the FO you are SIC whether you fly or not. If you are the CA, signing and final authority of the airplane, you are the PIC whether you are flying or not. Real PIC is the more valuable time. And what do you mean by SIC "program"?
 
SIC = Second in Command program. Where you pay to fly right seat. The FO will log PIC if he is the flying pilot on a particular leg.

As I mentioned earlier, on the heavier aircraft, this is not the same.
 
I wouldn't suggest either.

There are jobs to be had, no point in entering into a PIC so SIC "program".

Let me amend the post a tinge, what kind of hours do you have now?
 
Have 250TT (CPL/ME & IR). See what I mean? Very low houred.

I'm 37 and do not want to instruct.
 
Instructing is about the best way to build time. When you are teaching the stuff, you are REALLY learning how to fly. It is also very gratifying and you can build time fast depending on where you go.
 
Nobody in the US is gonna touch you with such low experience, even if you do a timebuilding program. I hear it's the norm in Europe, though. Is your goal to have a career in the US or in Europe? Do you have the right to work in the US?
 
The idea was to get 250-500hrs turbine time. Then I'd be much more attractive to potential employers both in FAA and JAA land.

Yes, it is the norm in Europe. I know someone with the same time as me just hired by a major airline.

My question still stands, PIC or SIC?
 
While I know you didn't want to start an arguement on PFT programs, this subject is gonna come DANGEROUSLY close since the "pay to sit in the right seat and log SIC" is exactly that, PFT (or more to the point PFJ). In the US, you are NOT gonna get turbine time with 250 hours unless you do one of those programs. Heck, 250 is bare mins for insurance in piston twins in most places, and some insurance mins want 300 TT and a certain amount of ME time on top of that.

I'm 30 and chose the instructor route, and I don't regret that decision on bit. I used to thinkg "Instructing? Man, all you do is sit in the other seat and watch someone else fly." Not the case at all. I've already had to save myself, my students and the airplane from certain destruction on landing more times than I can count on one hand, and I've only been actively doing this for about two weeks. You're also constantly having to talk people through manuevers, which is much harder than it sounds. Plus, the place I work likes to send their instructors to get mx parts instead of waiting 3-5 business days for them to be shipped in, so I actually DO get to fly a good amount.
 
If you want to PFJ/PFT and go work in Europe, knock yourself out. Luckily, buying your time and getting a major airline job hasn't become the norm here. Hopefully, it never will.

If you want to work in the US, then the PFJ issue has been beaten to death as a bad idea, which I concur with.

Personally, and many will disagree with me on this, I don't have a problem if you want to sit right seat in a Beech 99 at Ameriflight and pay for 500 hours of turbine time. You're not taking anyones job away. For the life of me, I can't figure out how you could log it as PIC unless it was a dead leg. The value of this time will be suspect and will stick out like a sore thumb at any interview in the US. I've heard Skywest won't hire you if the majority of your ME experience is from a timebuilding program.

If a timebuilding program is what European majors like to see, though, then go for it. My buddy at Amflight says they sometimes hire guys who do this. Sometimes they don't. Not many feel the need to do the program these days. Maybe you should PM trybysky for a another answer/opinion.

If you have the right and desire to work in the US, it's best to build some experience before you go to the airlines. You said you don't want to CFI. I think guys who honestly don't want to CFI make bad CFI's, and bad CFI's are the last thing we need. Maybe you could find other ways to build time, like aircraft ownership, banner towing, traffic watch, ferrying aircraft, Grand Canyon tours, Alaska, or other 135 VFR gigs.

I actually did very little instructing but got a tour job in the Grand Canyon. My Amflight buddy got a job at an air taxi outfit flying throughout the San Juan Islands in WA state.
 
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I actually did very little instructing but got a tour job in the Grand Canyon. My Amflight buddy got a job at an air taxi outfit flying throughout the San Juan Islands in WA state.

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Also a very good option. When I hit the 500 TT 135 VFR mins, I'm probably gonna start looking at stuff like this. Also, there are a couple of places in the US that fly turbine with 600 TT mins (Scenic Airlines in Vegas off the top of my head).
 
is that really necessary MP?

do you have any opinons to add besides? maybe a better solution perhaps?
 
i am sorry i shouldnt have come across like that.

It always seems someone is trying to cheat the system somehow. People have been going the civilian route for the airlines for the last 30+ years without the need for these "programs", this method obviously works. Why do people keep trying to do these things? Lazyness perhaps? Wanting something handed to them? Fear of instructing?

let me ask you this: How are you gonna log that time in a single pilot aircraft? You arent anything more than a passenger who pulls the gear. If the freight that night is more important weight wise, then you stay home, not really a SIC now is it?
 
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have fun being a [censored] (rhymes with bore).

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a Working Hard Operations Reliability Engineer???? At least that was the name the contractors gave themselves on the night shift at an auto plant.
 
Kelly does have a point, though. A lot of these programs will say "Hand us $18K and get 200 hours SIC time in a Baron!" Then when you show up for the airline interview with 800-1000 TT, 200 of that SIC, they'll ask how you were able to log SIC time on an aircraft certified for one pilot. Airnet is kinda skirting the rules, but it's still legal in the eyes of the FAA and they DO give you a 135 SIC checkout (which is required if you want to log that time). Also, they pay YOU instead of the other way around. Some of these other operators make money off the freight AND the poor guy who dropped thousands of $$$ for illegal time. Unfortunately, there are people lined up around the corner ready to hand over their cash b/c they don't want to wait and do it right.
 
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It always seems someone is trying to cheat the system somehow.

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Someone please correct me if I'm mistaken, but in Europe (where Sith may ultimately end up?) the PFT/PFJ route IS "the system" isn't it?
 
Sith-
Apologies for some of my more boorish brethren, but it must be said that this post is tantamount to going on a pro-life forum and extolling the virtues of coathangers versus bailing wire. It's just not cricket my friend.

Sorry you're not getting much of a straight answer either, but I don't suppose you can really expect one...

My advice, if you insist on one of these programs, is to get as much time as you can afford and go back to JAA land where it will do you some good. Even with 500 turbine PIC, you're still short of the 1200 PIC and 200 Multi that even the most basic freight or regional is likely to require over here. And the majors are wanting 1000 hours turbine PIC-- at $500 an hour in the B-99, thats half a million, and you'll still be sitting in the interview room with two dozen guys who earned thier time 'honestly' in much heavier aircraft.

I suspect that your age is one of the factors in your decision to pay for your time, and I suppose I can understand that. I should say, however, that went from 250PIC and 100Multi to 1450 and 600 in one and a half years by instructing and flying skydivers. So you can do it too via similar means, even if you don't want to instruct. You'll be a better pilot, retain the respect of your peers, and avoid bringing down our profession, and all without too much time shaven from the shelf life of your career.

Best of luck, and may you have the callsign 'Speedbird' somewhere in your future!
 
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