Where to start?

Half_Mick

Half_Mick

New Member
First post... So bear with me.

I'm 27. Married with no children. Zero Hours (actually 3 hours in a C-152 but never logged). PPL and instrument rating in Microsoft Flight Simulator X :).

I've been approved for financing ($80,000 @ 5%) for this new ATP/Gulfstream program, but I'm not confident in the program or the prospects of a job afterwards. Honestly, I can see quite a few people being bankrupted by such heavy debt, especially since if you miraculously land a job right out of school you're not even making enough to pay the rent, let alone pay the loan.

So I guess I'm looking for some Veteran advice as to where I begin, or if I should begin. Realistically, have I missed the boat on the possibility of being a professional pilot? How much does it REALLY cost you before you can land a job at a respectable regional airline (if that really exists)? Is it possible to get traditional student loans to pay for a more FBO style flight training? I'm willing to take risks in this life, and consider money and time towards this to be an investment, but I can't put myself and my wife in the poor house pursuing it. Any advice or shared experiences would be much appreciated.
 
I would stay far away from taking out an $80,000 loan. Especially in this economy. Im very surprised they approved you for that much. Trust your instinct. It sounds like your not too sure. Go with it. As far as the places youre looking into. Ill let some else chime in on that one.
You havent missed the boat at all. Its a down turn in the industry and a good time to start training. The airlines will hire again.

I would head to your local airport and check if they have a flight school and start on your PPL at your own pace with your own money.
 
I'm willing to take risks in this life, and consider money and time towards this to be an investment, but I can't put myself and my wife in the poor house pursuing it.
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You answered the question yourself. You will put yourself in the poor house with that loan. Pay as you fly at an FBO. Don't believe the hype of ATP/Gulfstream. Gulfstream has FO's on furlough right now as we speak. I wonder if they think their 80G's was worth it? They probably have the time to think about it sitting at home...

Fly for fun. Go read/listen to what Capt. Sully said about the state about the industry and that should help you make up your mind. Or you can be like alot of us and disregard experienced advice and find out for yourself what professional flying is like. Either way you only live once and if you gotta do it go for it...
 
I would stay far away from taking out an $80,000 loan. Especially in this economy. Im very surprised they approved you for that much.
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Yeah, me too. Isn't this reckless type of loaning what helped cause the housing crisis in the first place?

I would head to your local airport and check if they have a flight school and start on your PPL at your own pace with your own money.
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Thats what I was thinking would be best, I was just afraid that with my age, if I started now, I would not be marketable to an airline by the time I get to the interview stage. The idea of "Fast Track" is made very tantalizing by these academies.

Thanks for the help, SeanD, it's nice to hear something positive with all of this gloom and doom swirlling around this forum. :rolleyes:
 
Half_Mick said:
Yeah, me too. Isn't this reckless type of loaning what helped cause the housing crisis in the first place?



Thats what I was thinking would be best, I was just afraid that with my age, if I started now, I would not be marketable to an airline by the time I get to the interview stage. The idea of "Fast Track" is made very tantalizing by these academies.

Thanks for the help, SeanD, it's nice to hear something positive with all of this gloom and doom swirlling around this forum. :rolleyes:
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No problem. Welcome aboard.There is no rush at 27. There are guys out there who got there first airline gigs in their 40s.
 
Don't do it.

I am not saying don't pursue flying, but I do not recommend getting started in the manner you propose here.

I don't have time to go on more than this right now but you will get many more opinions from others, some to the same effect as I've just written. I agree with them.
 
Stay away from Gulfstream. They are what we in the industry can PFT (Pay for Training). Basically they want you to pay them to provide you with Part 121 airline training and after your done, to pay them again to let you sit in the right seat to gain those 250 hours of experience. Normal airlines offer you employment; pay you while you train, which is provided free of cost by the airline, and pay you to fly in the right seat.
Don't go into debt with that big loan. I'm surprised they're still offering loans that large, especially for flight training. Go get you training done at a local FBO/flight school. It's eight times cheaper than those fast track/academy type places.
 
3green said:
You answered the question yourself. You will put yourself in the poor house with that loan. Pay as you fly at an FBO. Don't believe the hype of ATP/Gulfstream. Gulfstream has FO's on furlough right now as we speak. I wonder if they think their 80G's was worth it? They probably have the time to think about it sitting at home...

Fly for fun. Go read/listen to what Capt. Sully said about the state about the industry and that should help you make up your mind. Or you can be like alot of us and disregard experienced advice and find out for yourself what professional flying is like. Either way you only live once and if you gotta do it go for it...
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I've been talking myself into this profession against all common sense for the past 3 years. Every now and again I get bit with the bug, and I have to see if I can make it happen. This is the closest I've come to jumping in head first, without a life vest...

I appreciate you being frank with me on this. Airline pilot is definitely not a recession-proof job. Capt. Sully's most depressing remark was something like, "I don't know a single pilot that wants there children to follow in their footsteps." Thanks for the advice.
 
You can spend less than half of that, get all your ratings at a FBO and still be in the same position (not having a job) except be far less in debt and at the same time perhaps network with the people at an FBO level which I think is the best way to get a job in this climate.
 
H46Bubba said:
Stay away from Gulfstream. They are what we in the industry can PFT (Pay for Training). Basically they want you to pay them to provide you with Part 121 airline training and after your done, to pay them again to let you sit in the right seat to gain those 250 hours of experience.
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That seems to be the general concensus... Thanks

Don't do it.

I am not saying don't pursue flying, but I do not recommend getting started in the manner you propose here.
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I agree... Thanks

Should've had my head examined for even romancing the thought of that huge loan...
 
I was thinking about going the ATP route as well, but I realized that it isn't a race, especially with the economy in it's current state. I'm not saying airlines aren't hiring, I'd rather fly at my own pace. And save a little cash at the same time. I'll be getting my PPL at CDW this spring.
 
It is simple. If you want to be a pilot, then become a pilot! If you cannot make payments on an 80K loan making 15-20k a year for 2-3 years after school DO NOT TAKE OUT THE LOAN! Go the local FBO route if money is an issue. It will be cheaper in the long run, and you can work and pay as you go!

If you can afford to pay for the loan, dont mind paying more then what it would cost going to an FBO and want to get done fast, then do it.

You have to decide what meets Your needs.
 
80g's...if it is not for Medical school tell them to keep it. I don't know anyone that have taken flight training loans with no regrets.

If you take your training in small steps and pay as you go, you will be better off in the long run! Keep your eyes off the big jets and just think about your next short term goal like...instrument rating. There is certainly no rush right now to have all your ratings. When the music starts back up, you will be ready.

This is the approach I took and I made it to the airline world without owing anyone a dime. I can use all of my little paycheck to buy food, gas and rent. I'm surviving. If I had any loans to pay, I would be on the corner with a cardboard sign. It would read "Will work for food...have no skills but I can fly an airplane"

Good Luck
 
Send the 80,000 check back and learn to fly at an FBO so that you don't put your family's future in jeopardy.

I bought my own airplane to learn to fly, now I'm about to finish my ATP and I've MADE money on my flight training.

I sold both the airplanes I bought for more than I paid for them...In the current market.
 
Half_Mick said:
Thats what I was thinking would be best, I was just afraid that with my age, if I started now, I would not be marketable to an airline by the time I get to the interview stage. The idea of "Fast Track" is made very tantalizing by these academies.
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And they KNOW it's tantalizing, especially to someone not straight outta high school or college. That's why the marketing departments use them. For the record, I didn't start training until I was 27, either. I got my PPL that year, my instrument the next year, and I wound up taking out a loan to get everything else knocked out. Didn't finish until I was 30, but the loan was only for about $15K by that point. $80k to get a job that's gonna pay $18-25K for the first several years is not smart, IMO. Upgrade times are gonna stay high for a while now. The reason lots of places had quick upgrades wasn't due to growth. In SOME cases it was attrition, but most were b/c they didn't have FOs that met the minimum hour requirements. Once things start moving again, that's not going to be an issue. Most of the FOs will have been in their current positions for close to 2-3 years, so they'll be well above the minimums for upgrade at most regionals.....even if they were hired with 200 hours.

I got hired with an airline when I was 31, and I wasn't even the oldest guy in class. Don't let the age thing think you need a fast track. It's much better the save the $$$ and get it done at a decent price than pay a premium to rush into an industry with few job prospects and a mountain of debt.
 
$80k is a lot of money considering you can easily do it for half of that

And don't plan on making a lot of money at first. In this environment you'll instruct for at least two years. Then if you're lucky go to a commuter or 135 freight.

$10k-$15k as CFI years 1 & 2 working 25-30 days a month, 12 hour days
$20k-$25k years 3 & 4 at a commuter as a junior FO on reserve or 135 freight pilot
$35k years 5+ as a line holder FO or 135 freight pilot
 
Don't go in debt to finance this career. It will be much more enjoyable for you not to have to make a payment on the 80k loan, much like the peers at your first job will. That 500/mo or whatever will be nice for rent.

Fasttrack schools are pretty much worthless now, as there are really no jobs to walk into like when I got out of school.

Find a good school, learn your fundamentals the right way. Pay as you go, and meet folks.

I hear SeanD knows a good school...

Welcome to JC
 
Listen to what everyone here is saying!

I was once in your position, same age, just not married, a week from moving to Florida to start at ERAU and 100k+ loan. I started reading all posts similar to this and realized it would be a huuuuuuge mistake.

Like everyone said, do training at an FBO with instructors you are comfortable with. Drive around to local schools, talk to instructors, students, FBO personel and other pilots you see around the airport. Ask about the school, the airport, the maintenance, reputation and if they have any suggestions. When looking into FBO's I was talking to the counter girl at one FBO and she informed me of a flight school that was closer to my house. Generally, outside of the pilot factory salesman trying to sell you a 30k in training for 80k, most people in aviation are very friendly and more than happy to answer your questions and help guide you in the right direction.

Best of luck!
 
esa17 said:
I bought my own airplane to learn to fly, now I'm about to finish my ATP and I've MADE money on my flight training.

I sold both the airplanes I bought for more than I paid for them...In the current market.
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That is actually not a bad idea. In fact I think it is a fantastic idea! I toyed around with buying a plane to do my training but, talked myself out of it. Now in retrospect, it probably would have been a wash but, I would still have an airplane that is paid off.
 
Capt. Caucasian said:
That is actually not a bad idea. In fact I think it is a fantastic idea! I toyed around with buying a plane to do my training but, talked myself out of it. Now in retrospect, it probably would have been a wash but, I would still have an airplane that is paid off.
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Owning a plane is great, its too much fun actually. Today, I pickup my 1946 J-3 Cub that I've been drooling over.

It makes the morning commute sooo much better.
 
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