Where to remove a "CE-500 Second In Command Required" limitation

[sullivanstarship]

I figured I would ask this question before making some facility calls. I received a CE-500 type rating at Flight Safety with the "SIC Required" restriction since it was done with a crew. Does anyone know of a location that can remove that restriction in a simulator? I was told at Flight Safety Atlanta that they wouldn't do it, but fill me in if any other locations like Simcom would. The most convenient situation would be to have the restriction removed along with the completion of a single pilot exemption course, however I've been getting mixed information on that...some have said that the restriction needs to be removed first, others say that it doesn't matter once you have a single pilot exemption for that aircraft.

 

[jrh]

This is a complicated and convoluted situation. Long story short, don't worry about it, it doesn't matter. Anyone who has dealt with CE-500 types for very long knows the SIC required limitation doesn't mean much either way.

Read this thread in its entirety to get a detailed background:

Type rating limitations.

I have a ce-500 PIC type rating with a limitation that says "second in command required". I have several co workers with the same type rating but without the limitation. They don't have the single pilot exemption. Is there a reason why mine has the limitation?

forums.jetcareers.com

If you still have questions, I'm happy to chat more.

 

[Skåning]

 

[Inverted]

Other FSI facilities can do it, any facility that can issue a single pilot type for it, will do it. Maybe they don't have the authorization at ATL to do it, but that sounds odd. Simcoom, CAE, FSI can issue a single pilot type in it which removes the limitation.

This is a complicated and convoluted situation. Long story short, don't worry about it, it doesn't matter. Anyone who has dealt with CE-500 types for very long knows the SIC required limitation doesn't mean much either way.

Read this thread in its entirety to get a detailed background:

Type rating limitations.

I have a ce-500 PIC type rating with a limitation that says "second in command required". I have several co workers with the same type rating but without the limitation. They don't have the single pilot exemption. Is there a reason why mine has the limitation?

forums.jetcareers.com

If you still have questions, I'm happy to chat more.

I would be real careful here. If an "sic required" is on your certificate to operate a CE-500, YOU require the SIC to act as PIC in that type.

 

[jrh]

I would be real careful here. If an "sic required" is on your certificate to operate a CE-500, YOU require the SIC to act as PIC in that type.

Right.

My point was that there are plenty of pilots who don't have any SIC required limitation on their certificate, but still can't fly single pilot. I'm one of them.

The FAA gives directly contradictory guidance on when to issue the SIC required limitation. That's why some pilots get it and others don't.

Any pilot authorized to fly single pilot will have more documentation to prove it beyond their pilot certificate (such as the single pilot exemption letter). With the CE-500 type, it should be assumed that everyone needs an SIC unless they can show further documentation to prove they don't.

Maybe if I had more details on the OP's training background and end goal I could give more specific advice. The limitation would go away if they did further training/checking, but just because the limitation isn't there doesn't mean it's a free for all to fly single pilot in any CE-500 any time.

 

[sullivanstarship]

Thanks for the input everyone. Overall my biggest concern was if I was going to have to go on a quest to find someone with a 501 or 551 to do a checkride in. The FSB report for the CE500 (https://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/fsb/ce-500 rev1.htm) shows that a checkride to remove the SIC Required limitation would have to be in a 501 or 551 so that got my mind rolling. Thanks for the link to that thread jrh, that's similar to the conversations I've had about this...all of the guys I know who are typed don't have this restriction printed on their certificate. I'll make some facility calls tomorrow, otherwise if any of you know a guy who isn't too sketchy that owns a 501 or 551, and a cool DPE, let me know!

 

[jrh]

Thanks for the input everyone. Overall my biggest concern was if I was going to have to go on a quest to find someone with a 501 or 551 to do a checkride in. The FSB report for the CE500 (https://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/fsb/ce-500 rev1.htm) shows that a checkride to remove the SIC Required limitation would have to be in a 501 or 551 so that got my mind rolling. Thanks for the link to that thread jrh, that's similar to the conversations I've had about this...all of the guys I know who are typed don't have this restriction printed on their certificate. I'll make some facility calls tomorrow, otherwise if any of you know a guy who isn't too sketchy that owns a 501 or 551, and a cool DPE, let me know!

Just curious, why do you want the limitation removed?

It doesn't sound like you have work lined up in a 501/551, so removing the limitation won't do you any good without also getting a single pilot letter of exemption. And if you're going to get trained and checked for the letter of exemption, they'll remove the SIC limitation at that point.

Long story short, don't worry about finding a 501 or 551, just go to any of the schools that offer single pilot training for the type and do it that way.

 

[sullivanstarship]

Jrh, overall the plan is to get a single pilot exemption for a CE560 and the real question is if the exemption overrides the restriction or not. Also, I was kind of unsure of the nature of the restriction and what it really means. The answer kind of depends on the FSDO, for the most part there is agreement that getting the exemption does override the restriction but it's still not unanimous. I actually did talk with someone at the Airmen Certification branch and she was actually unsure, and didn't want to commit to either decision. Flight Safety and Simcom stand by the idea that an exemption overrides the restriction too. The next twist is if single pilot flying of a 501 or 551 is legal, with some thinking that the restriction would mean a SIC is require but others believe that a removal of that restriction would mean that a pilot could ONLY fly single pilot...I don't know if I'm on board with that yet, but after reading 61.43 and the FSB report for the CE500 with that mentality I can actually see where that would come from. Anyway, I do appreciate the feedback and hope you guys are staying busy these days!

 

[Corporate Pilot]

I do not have the SIC required on my certificate. I have held a SP exemption since 2007. My best guess is that with the SIC required on your certificate you cannot fly a 501 or 551 single pilot. I believe you can get an exemption with the SIC required on your certificate. I looked at the requirements for some of the exemptions I have held and none of them said that you could not hold the exemption with the SIC required on your cert. All of the exemptions list the models that they cover I do not believe any of the exemptions I have held list the 501/551. When I go to SP exemption recurrent I get a separate 61.58 logbook sticker for the 501/551.

Not sure how much of a check ride is required to remove the limitation. When I got my KA 300 type I did most of my checkride with 2 pilots. Toward the end the examiner said congratulations you have passed with 2 pilots. He then had the SIC get in the back of the sim and I took off, lost an engine and came around and shot a single engine ILS. He then said congratulations you do not need an SIC, this was at CAE early 2007. There may have been more but that is what I remember.

You might call Rich Aviation at FTW and ask what they require to remove the limitation. I believe they have access to a 501 and a local examiner.

 

[jrh]

Jrh, overall the plan is to get a single pilot exemption for a CE560 and the real question is if the exemption overrides the restriction or not.

Ah, gotcha. My understanding is that a pilot takes the training and checkride for a single pilot exemption and they are issued a new certificate without the SIC limitation. I didn't consider the exemption "overriding" the limitation because I thought the limitation went away all together after passing the single pilot checkride. Maybe I'm wrong about that. I've never seriously checked in to getting a single pilot exemption.

I'd try not to overthink it. If you have never been trained or checked as a single pilot, you need an SIC. Once you have a single pilot exemption letter, you're allowed to do whatever the letter says you can do.

 

[sullivanstarship]

Hey thanks Corporate Pilot, I'll make a note to check with Rich if needed. Thanks again for all the replies!