When are you in the hold?

Shiftace said:
DPE said that entering holding pattern with wrong entry can be a failing issue. In this case, he was happy that I said parallel, and told him what I was doing along every step..."I'll climb to 3200. fly Away from the station for another minute. Now left turn direct. Cross the fix. Turn to 126. etc.".

Interestingly, on the GPS approach, we had a course reversal. GPS wanted me to do a parallel type reversal. I, however, opted for a teardrop reversal. He was perfectly fine with that and said... doesn't matter. Only entry type on holds can be a pass/fail item....
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I don't agree with that at all. As an instructor, I'd talk to the examiner but I understand not arguing as the student. I typically just did what they wanted and then resumed from there.... either way, he shouldn't be stating that it's a fail item. The PTS doesn't state it and it's out of the AIM, which isn't regulatory.

The instrument PTS only states this about holding entries as well..

Explains and uses an entry procedure that ensures the
aircraft remains within the holding pattern airspace for a
standard, nonstandard, published, or nonpublished holding
pattern.

Nothing about the "3 entries" and how you must select the correct one in the examiners mind or else you fail the checkride.
 
Crop Duster said:
It's pretty straight forward, really.
1. TOGA
2. Climb on runway heading to 3200ft.
3. Turn left direct to the VOR.
4. When the flag flips, you are entering the hold. (It's direct and anyone who says otherwise is itching for a fight). Immediately begin your right turn outbound.
5. Wings level at 126°. Start timer. Fly heading 126° for one minute.
6. Turn right again. (Note turn radius and/or potential overshoot for drift clues.)
7. Fly the needle back to the VOR. (Note correction angle.) (Note time.)
8. Watch for the flip, turn right again... adding any time/heading adjustments you noted inbound.
9. Go to Step 4. Rinse and Repeat.

Specifically, the hold begins when you begin your entry to it crossing the fix (whichever way). In this case, as was pointed out by someone above, the DPE was confused. It might look like a teardrop, but you don't enter the hold by going missed. First you fly the missed leg(s) to the holding fix. You can't enter the hold until you've flown the missed procedure and then crossed the holding fix with intention to hold.
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Your description agrees with my understanding. I searched for specific language that differentiates between "entering a hold" and "established in a hold," but was unsuccessful. The closest I could come up with was a reference in the AIM (I think it was in 4-03-03) which addresses when to initiate the turn outbound. (It speaks of the first full reversal of the flag, as mentioned in 4 above, but does not specifically define it as the point at which you are established.) If anyone has a specific reference, please post it.
 
tcco94 said:
DPE's shouldn't and can't fail you for entry into holding patterns (as my understanding) because it's from the AIM and not regulatory. When I took my instrument rating exam, they told me I'd fail if I don't pick the right entry. When I did my CFI-I a few months ago, they said the FAA had reached out to DPE's that they needed to stop failing people for this. I guess whether they do or not depends on the DPE?

As far as when to report, I got into it with my DPE on my CFI-I checkride. He asked me "when are you going to report established in the hold" ... I wasn't really sure what answer he was looking for so I beat around the bush to buy some time. He ended up getting a little annoyed I could tell and then just switched his question to "what does established mean" and I just tied it together with when you're established on the localizer of an ILS and then tied that together with holding and came to the conclusion the correct answer was when the needle is moving in after you're turning towards the fix and he said that was correct and we moved on. Every CFI that I've told that to, says that's wrong and there's no real definition to "established" on when to report. Many people go by reporting established after you've crossed over the fix.

I'm still wondering which one is better to teach my students when they get to instrument. Everytime I bring up this talk, everyone has some weird answer that's different than mine and everyone else.
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The AIM says it's after you pass the holding fix the first time:


5-3-3 Additional Reports
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a. The following reports should be made to
ATC or FSS facilities without a specific ATC
request:

1. At all times:

(f) The time and altitude or flight level upon reaching a holding fix or point to which cleared.
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averettpilot said:
If he's saying it's a parallel entry then he's advocating flying the missed procedure wrong. Outbound for the missed is 136. Outbound for the hold is 126. Unless he has a different definition of parallel, he's wrong.
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That's the problem that leads to confusion. It's not really wrong. It depends on how you view the initial climb.

Look at the plate.

If you accept the DPE's position that the initial missed approach climb is in the hold, the initial climb is a not only a parallel entry but a mandatory parallel entry because the initial missed approach instruction is a straight ahead climb.

If you reject the DPE's position and you say that are not entering the hold until you turn back to the VOR after the initial climb, then it is clearly a direct entry.

To me, the DPE is in the wrong for at least 2 reasons if his reasoning is as described in the OP. I disagree with the characterization of the initial climb and maneuvering to the MAHF where a hold takes place as "in the hold" whether it is colocated with the MAP, colocated with the FAF or somewhere 20 NM away.

Second, he added a completely unnecessary layer of confusion to a subject that is made unnecessarily confusing to begin with.

What to do when executing the missed on this plate is incredibly simple. It's the Examiner's explanation that is difficult.
 
Honestly if this was a UND stage check I would politely discuss the situation with Standards. Not in a "I think this examiner screwed me" context, more to just bring it to the attention of Standards department that one of their examiners is going outside the PTS and AIM.
 
[/QUOTE]As far as when to report, I got into it with my DPE on my CFI-I checkride. He asked me "when are you going to report established in the hold" ... I wasn't really sure what answer he was looking for so I beat around the bush to buy some time. He ended up getting a little annoyed I could tell and then just switched his question to "what does established mean" and I just tied it together with when you're established on the localizer of an ILS and then tied that together with holding and came to the conclusion the correct answer was when the needle is moving in after you're turning towards the fix and he said that was correct and we moved on. Every CFI that I've told that to, says that's wrong and there's no real definition to "established" on when to report. Many people go by reporting established after you've crossed over the fix.

I'm still wondering which one is better to teach my students when they get to instrument. Everytime I bring up this talk, everyone has some weird answer that's different than mine and everyone else.[/QUOTE]

I've always used a common sense approach to this and teach what is done in the real world. I'm sure any ATC will tell you the same thing I've always heard - report in the hold once you're initially crossing the fix to enter your hold so that they know you're in you're protected airspace and they can manage other things before they get back to you. Report established on the loc/course for an approach once you've got "case break"/needle deflection in the right direction.

I'll agree that the OP was in the right here. You're tracking 10deg off of a true parallel entry and there's a climb restriction prior to turning inbound. I wouldn't report holding here until I crossed the fix the second time and made a right turn into a direct entry.

So glad I don't have to teach this for a living anymore. My hat is off to you guys. Writing those two paragraphs just melted my brain. Back to TOGA, Power up, clean up, FMS nav, Autopilot on. Flying is so hard!
 
Back to TOGA, Power up, clean up, FMS nav, Autopilot on. Flying is so hard![/QUOTE]

Yeah, until the FMS has a big fat red and white sticker on it, and you can't use it.
 
Fly it as published. End of discussion. As far as when you are entering the hold, it's when you are entering the hold. I.E., crossing the fix for the HOLD. Crop Duster has it right.
 
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