When are you established inbound?

[Chief Captain]

With reference to holds, I was having a discussion today about exactly when to start inbound timing, then we digressed into when exactly we were inbound. Here are the 2 frequent situations:

You overshoot the turn and the needle centers before you finish turning

you undershoot the turn and the needle doesn't quite center


When exactly do you guys start to time the inbound leg?

 

[Bernoulli Fan]

Timing in a hold is more art than science. There are a lot of things to consider, but the bottom line is, stay on the holding side and stay near the fix and ATC is happy. The amount of airspace protected for a hold is probably twice as big as the amount you actually use.

If you really want to get technical, here's my thought: In either case, start the timer when the needle centers. This will probably lead to less than 1:00 inbound. On your next outbound, you will naturally crab into the crosswind you didn't anticipate the first outbound, decreasing your groundspeed. This will necessitate a longer outbound leg, which fortunately you will already be planning to do to correct your less-than-1:00 previous inbound.

 

[Douglas]

I started to wonder why we time on the first leg inbound anyway, fat lot of good that info will do you.
Alright that was off topic, but it is just interesting to look around at some of the stuff we do because, 'cuz-that's-what-you-do.

On topic. Wings level on the heading that should hold your inbound course. If we really went through the course or spent a long time getting to the course, I'd have them adjust the outbound course and keep the outbound time roughly the same since the inbound leg didn't give good data on how to accurately adjust the outbound.

 

[fish314]

I started to wonder why we time on the first leg inbound anyway, fat lot of good that info will do you.
Alright that was off topic, but it is just interesting to look around at some of the stuff we do because, 'cuz-that's-what-you-do.

On topic. Wings level on the heading that should hold your inbound course. If we really went through the course or spent a long time getting to the course, I'd have them adjust the outbound course and keep the outbound time roughly the same since the inbound leg didn't give good data on how to accurately adjust the outbound.

:yeahthat:

I was taught "wings level inbound" as the point to start the timing. Assuming you make one sustained standard rate turn to your heading to get back on the course (whether you overshot or undershot), that should be really pretty close to the "correct" time of your inbound leg.

As for the question that Douglas asked, about why we start the timing on the first inbound leg since we know we are going to need to adjust from there, I think the answer is: why would we wait to the second trip around before checking the inbound time? Even if we know the first trip around the pattern is going to require adjustments, why wait to the second trip around before figuring out what we are supposed to be adjusting? That just ensures that the first AND SECOND trips around the hold are probably going to be jacked up, instead of just the first.

 

[ftyflyboy]

Wings level inbound, start time. As long as you are consistent, it doesnt really matter.

 

[SteveC]

From a thread about 5 years ago:

From page 4-6 of the Instrument Proceedures Handbook (FAA-H-8261-1)

To be “established” means to be stable or fixed on a route, route segment, altitude, heading, etc. The International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) definition of established is considered as being within half full scale deflection for the ILS and VOR, or within ±5° of the required bearing for the nondirectional radio beacon (NDB). Generally, the controller assigns an altitude compatible with glide slope intercept prior to being cleared for the approach.

 

[Douglas]

As for the question that Douglas asked, about why we start the timing on the first inbound leg since we know we are going to need to adjust from there, I think the answer is: why would we wait to the second trip around before checking the inbound time? Even if we know the first trip around the pattern is going to require adjustments, why wait to the second trip around before figuring out what we are supposed to be adjusting? That just ensures that the first AND SECOND trips around the hold are probably going to be jacked up, instead of just the first.

If I could draw it out I'd probably convey what I'm saying better.
Direct entry for example, you can't take a time and it doesn't leave you hanging or less equipped for the hold.
My first established leg outbound is always going to be a minute, no matter how screwy my first inbound leg from a parallel or tear drop entry was. (I'm talking /A piston aircraft because that is what I know)
Parallel entry, I go out 1.5 minutes to help with the turn back inbound depending on the winds, so I wouldn't adjust my first outbound from the standard one minute from what I saw on my parallel inbound.
Teardrop: This one is pretty close, but I'm still going to go outbound for 1-minute on my first "established" outbound, just to keep things standard.

Am I still going to note the time the second hand is sweeping by when I get established inbound the first time? Yeah, I'm not stubborn, it is a habit, but I'm not going to adjust my hold or put much weight to it.

Basically my comment came from my students getting to the VOR from the first inbound and going, "shoot! I forgot to take a time!" So what? I want them taking times because they are thinking about how they need that time, not the 'cuz-that-is-what-you-do part of aviation.

 

[fish314]

...Basically my comment came from my students getting to the VOR from the first inbound and going, "shoot! I forgot to take a time!" So what? I want them taking times because they are thinking about how they need that time, not the 'cuz-that-is-what-you-do part of aviation.

Aha! That clears it up. Yeah, the point of the timing is an effort to make your pattern a particular size, ensure you remain within the airspace set aside for the hold, etc., etc., not merely a "this is how we do it" exercise. So if you miss timing on that first leg, just make the outbound a minute (or a minute and a half above 14k) and go with it.

As far as the timing being messed up by the type of entry you do, well, sure I can see that argument I guess. I just always took it for granted that it wouldn't be off by enough to really worry about it and just attributed to winds. That may make my second inbound leg a little bit off, I guess, but if you don't time the first inbound and just go with a minute on the second outbound it winds up the same way: Second inbound is off by whatever the wind component is.

The biggest reason I tried to emphasize timing on the all the inbounds and all the outbounds is so the student doesn't forget to time the outbounds. In my mind, that is the more critical. Forget to time the inbound and you won't know which way to adjust the pattern. Forget to time the outbound and frequently the student won't turn at all until way too late due to the fact that when we don't have a watch on us, we humans are lousy judges of time. In the sim I've seen a "one minute outbound" last almost 4 minutes (it was non-DME, non-GPS and the student was behind the jet. Not only he not hack his clock on an outbound leg, he got so wrapped around the axle trying to set up his navaids and whatnot in an attempt to "get ahead of the airplane" that he would have continued into the next state if I hadn't said something).

 

[TWP]

With reference to holds, I was having a discussion today about exactly when to start inbound timing, then we digressed into when exactly we were inbound. Here are the 2 frequent situations:

You overshoot the turn and the needle centers before you finish turning

you undershoot the turn and the needle doesn't quite center


When exactly do you guys start to time the inbound leg?

1) when the needle centers

The logic being, you are established for a moment when that needle centers and everything you do after that can be considered corrections.
2) wings level, inbound

If you spend all day chasing the needle in this case you might shoot well past it (and outside of protected airspace) thus wasting tons of time. If you just fly to the vor, you can come back around again for a mulligan



Either way there are going to be widely varying opinions on this subject and as long as it doesn't look too weird on ATC's screen nobody but you is going to be the wiser