Say you were flying in thick IMC and you have just lost your radio communications, shortly after you lose your VORs also and have no backup Nav. equipment. There in no VMC in any direction. Would you automatically just head for an unpopulated area at that point ? If you still had an operational DME would you attempt to continue, since it would be possible to navigate based on DME distance numbers?
What would you do?
- Thread starter ZUM
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mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
There's always VMC in some direction...no such thing as "IFR over the entire earth...". And if you've lost your NAV and COM capabilities, how is your DME still operating?
The problem is really that there may be low IMC acorss an entire region, and it could be 200-300 miles until you reach VMC or Marginal VMC.
I'd head for the highest ceilings that I found in my WX briefing and hope for the best.
The problem is really that there may be low IMC acorss an entire region, and it could be 200-300 miles until you reach VMC or Marginal VMC.
I'd head for the highest ceilings that I found in my WX briefing and hope for the best.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
This is a common oral question here in Florida, and it's a little easier to answer due to our low terrain and the ocean. Basically, stay at the minimum altitude for the sector you are in on your charts, use your compass to get out over the ocean, then descend until you are out of the clouds. Odds are you won't hit a tower on descent over the ocean, and you KNOW it's at 0 MSL. Put it down on the beach and wait for the FAA.
flyguy
Well-Known Member
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And if you've lost your NAV and COM capabilities, how is your DME still operating?
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I know you're thinking electrical failure, but I think this is a hypothetical situation in which the pilot is unlucky enough to coincidentally have both a com and nav failure but still has electrical power. Highly unlikely, but possible, and the DME should still work.
And if you've lost your NAV and COM capabilities, how is your DME still operating?
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I know you're thinking electrical failure, but I think this is a hypothetical situation in which the pilot is unlucky enough to coincidentally have both a com and nav failure but still has electrical power. Highly unlikely, but possible, and the DME should still work.
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
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And if you've lost your NAV and COM capabilities, how is your DME still operating?
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I know you're thinking electrical failure, but I think this is a hypothetical situation in which the pilot is unlucky enough to coincidentally have both a com and nav failure but still has electrical power. Highly unlikely, but possible, and the DME should still work.
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Very true. However, in most airplanes (not all), the DME reciever is a part of the NAV reciever. Unless you're flying a very unique aircraft, you lose the DME with the NAV reciever...
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And if you've lost your NAV and COM capabilities, how is your DME still operating?
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I know you're thinking electrical failure, but I think this is a hypothetical situation in which the pilot is unlucky enough to coincidentally have both a com and nav failure but still has electrical power. Highly unlikely, but possible, and the DME should still work.
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Very true. However, in most airplanes (not all), the DME reciever is a part of the NAV reciever. Unless you're flying a very unique aircraft, you lose the DME with the NAV reciever...
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
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There's always VMC in some direction...no such thing as "IFR over the entire earth...". And if you've lost your NAV and COM capabilities, how is your DME still operating?
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Though there couldbe IFR over your remaining fuel range.....
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Very true! The, you're just screwed....
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There's always VMC in some direction...no such thing as "IFR over the entire earth...". And if you've lost your NAV and COM capabilities, how is your DME still operating?
[/ QUOTE ]
Though there couldbe IFR over your remaining fuel range.....
[/ QUOTE ]
Very true! The, you're just screwed....
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[ QUOTE ]
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There's always VMC in some direction...no such thing as "IFR over the entire earth...". And if you've lost your NAV and COM capabilities, how is your DME still operating?
[/ QUOTE ]
Though there couldbe IFR over your remaining fuel range.....
[/ QUOTE ]
Very true! The, you're just screwed....
[/ QUOTE ]
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=76881&key=0
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001211X14304&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001212X17079&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=34475&key=0
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001213X29832&key=1
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There's always VMC in some direction...no such thing as "IFR over the entire earth...". And if you've lost your NAV and COM capabilities, how is your DME still operating?
[/ QUOTE ]
Though there couldbe IFR over your remaining fuel range.....
[/ QUOTE ]
Very true! The, you're just screwed....
[/ QUOTE ]
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=76881&key=0
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001211X14304&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001212X17079&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=34475&key=0
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001213X29832&key=1
Wow.
ATP with 16,300 hours in a B-25 Mitchell, lost all communication and nav equipment on an overwater flight above an overcast, made it back to land but suffered fuel exhaustion and had to land off-airport. Lucky they came out alive after colliding with trees.
<shiver>
ATP with 16,300 hours in a B-25 Mitchell, lost all communication and nav equipment on an overwater flight above an overcast, made it back to land but suffered fuel exhaustion and had to land off-airport. Lucky they came out alive after colliding with trees.
<shiver>
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
I'm not ditching in water. I know my chances there....
No, I'll stick to the trees and mountain tops!!
No, I'll stick to the trees and mountain tops!!
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Wow.
ATP with 16,300 hours in a B-25 Mitchell, lost all communication and nav equipment on an overwater flight above an overcast, made it back to land but suffered fuel exhaustion and had to land off-airport. Lucky they came out alive after colliding with trees.
<shiver>
[/ QUOTE ]
How about the 172 in California that was caught "on-top" and was finally radar IDd 110 NM out to sea? That ties-in to exactly what we're talking about.
That one was spooky.
I've got some more interesting ones like those that I can dig up....
Wow.
ATP with 16,300 hours in a B-25 Mitchell, lost all communication and nav equipment on an overwater flight above an overcast, made it back to land but suffered fuel exhaustion and had to land off-airport. Lucky they came out alive after colliding with trees.
<shiver>
[/ QUOTE ]
How about the 172 in California that was caught "on-top" and was finally radar IDd 110 NM out to sea? That ties-in to exactly what we're talking about.
That one was spooky.
I've got some more interesting ones like those that I can dig up....
RiddlePilot
New Member
I know nobody likes 'em, but this was one of the many good reasons to have a look at weather charts before flying IFR. A weather depiction chart especially comes in handy in one of these types of situations. If you know graphically where the VFR is compared to your route, you can point your nose in the general direction and cross your fingers.
But, if there's absolutely no VMC in any direction, that turns into a really tough question. Assuming you didn't have one of those fancy transiever thingys with nav/comm capability, I think you'd just have to head in the direction where you think it could start lightening up some. If you can find a hole, great. I dunno.
But, if there's absolutely no VMC in any direction, that turns into a really tough question. Assuming you didn't have one of those fancy transiever thingys with nav/comm capability, I think you'd just have to head in the direction where you think it could start lightening up some. If you can find a hole, great. I dunno.
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I'm not ditching in water. I know my chances there....
No, I'll stick to the trees and mountain tops!!
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Me too. even if it's close to land, on a river or small lake, in a fixed gear aircraft, i've heard that it's very likely that the plane will flip inverted when it makes contact with the water. It might be tough to get out at that point and worse if you are knocked unconcious.
I'm not ditching in water. I know my chances there....
No, I'll stick to the trees and mountain tops!!
[/ QUOTE ]
Me too. even if it's close to land, on a river or small lake, in a fixed gear aircraft, i've heard that it's very likely that the plane will flip inverted when it makes contact with the water. It might be tough to get out at that point and worse if you are knocked unconcious.
TallBoy85
Well-Known Member
I've found it would be much easier to ded-reckon to an open flatter area, ie an airport where you know the weather looks a little better and spiral down there. You know the airspace won't be too congested and hopefully you'll break out into marginal enough conditions that you can get in. I recommend to my students that they take even an expired VFR sectional with them on all our IFR Cross Countries so that if the situation were to present itself we would know where to get to. Mountains have a tendency not to move ya know?
Then again, who here is for an IFR cross country with LIFR conditions throughout your fuel range in a single engine airplane? All takers raise your hands...
Then again, who here is for an IFR cross country with LIFR conditions throughout your fuel range in a single engine airplane? All takers raise your hands...
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
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Then again, who here is for an IFR cross country with LIFR conditions throughout your fuel range in a single engine airplane? All takers raise your hands...
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Right here...done it more than a few times.
Some people insist that it's death on a stick, but it's just an inherent risk, in my opinion. If you're going to do that, though, make sure that you understand those risks and that you manage those risks. Discuss options with your co-pilot and/or weather briefer. know where the best conditions are. Have applicable charts and be ready to divert at a moments notice.
One funny thing that I've noticed (I have to tease and pick...
) is listening to some of the guys on the thread that fly jets now and talk about how they'd never fly a light single in IMC.....
Must be nice to not have to worry about such a thing!!!
Then again, who here is for an IFR cross country with LIFR conditions throughout your fuel range in a single engine airplane? All takers raise your hands...
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Right here...done it more than a few times.
Some people insist that it's death on a stick, but it's just an inherent risk, in my opinion. If you're going to do that, though, make sure that you understand those risks and that you manage those risks. Discuss options with your co-pilot and/or weather briefer. know where the best conditions are. Have applicable charts and be ready to divert at a moments notice.
One funny thing that I've noticed (I have to tease and pick...
Minuteman
I HAVE STRONG OPINIONS ABOUT AUTOMOTIVE LIGHTING!
I would follow my best guess at a straight line to the nearest TFR or Prohibited area. I figure any plane not talking to a controller and headed for that kind of airspace would be the fastest way to get an escort.
(Disclaimer: I'm kidding ... seriously ... dude from the FBI, stop looking at me like that.)
(Disclaimer: I'm kidding ... seriously ... dude from the FBI, stop looking at me like that.)
aloft
New Member
This is precisely the scenario where you break out your handheld com/nav transceiver, your handheld GPS, or your cell phone (or all three). No reason to get caught with your pants entirely down!
Even the cheapest of GPS receivers will give you useful guidance, and if you're truly in the throes of such an emergency, the FARs prohibiting their use for primary navigation under IFR no longer apply. Having the benefit of quite a bit of experience with my handheld GPS (a non-aviation unit at that), I'm entirely comfortable with relying upon its guidance in IMC in an emergency. As a practical matter, I'd adhere to my existing clearance as I would in a typical lost comm situation, deviating only if I broke out into VMC someplace along the way that offered me someplace (an airport) to land safely.
Even the cheapest of GPS receivers will give you useful guidance, and if you're truly in the throes of such an emergency, the FARs prohibiting their use for primary navigation under IFR no longer apply. Having the benefit of quite a bit of experience with my handheld GPS (a non-aviation unit at that), I'm entirely comfortable with relying upon its guidance in IMC in an emergency. As a practical matter, I'd adhere to my existing clearance as I would in a typical lost comm situation, deviating only if I broke out into VMC someplace along the way that offered me someplace (an airport) to land safely.
RiddlePilot
New Member
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As a practical matter, I'd adhere to my existing clearance as I would in a typical lost comm situation, deviating only if I broke out into VMC someplace along the way that offered me someplace (an airport) to land safely.
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I'm not exactly seeing the reasoning behind this. In my mind, even if you have a handheld GPS onboard, clearance be damned. Your number one priority is to find VMC any way you can. Could you clarify?
As a practical matter, I'd adhere to my existing clearance as I would in a typical lost comm situation, deviating only if I broke out into VMC someplace along the way that offered me someplace (an airport) to land safely.
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I'm not exactly seeing the reasoning behind this. In my mind, even if you have a handheld GPS onboard, clearance be damned. Your number one priority is to find VMC any way you can. Could you clarify?