Visual approach and offset LOC

89-LX

89-LX

Well-Known Member
So I had a good conversation with a line check airman regarding being cleared for the visual approach to a runway with an offset localizer. We got on the conversation talking about the opening of runway 18R/28L in ORD. We got a tech ops bulletin that stated the following:

Even in visual conditions and with visual clearances, it is imperative 10R arrivals follow the LOC course. If crews attempt to align for the straight in early, it will appear that the flight is going to violate the NTZ and cause ATC to issue “Miss” instructions to 10R and/or 10C traffic.
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We also spoke about DTW and when the ATIS is broadcasting the localizer as being offset, that we must fly that in visual conditions. Here is the actual ATIS from DTW right now as the example:
DTW ATIS INFO F 1253Z. 36003KT 10SM FEW140 SCT250 06/03 A3045 (THREE ZERO FOUR
FIVE). SIMUL VISUAL APCH IN USE RY 22L, RY 22R USE Y LOC FREQ 111.75. DEPG RWY
21R, RWY 22L . NOTAMS... RWY 21L, 3R CLSD, RWY 27L, 9R CLSD, RWY 27R, 9L CLSD.
NMRS TWYS CLSD MKD BY CONES AND FLASHERS. RUNWAY 22R YANKEE LOCALIZER IS
OFFSET. PILOTS ARE REQSTD TO OPER THEIR TRANSPNDR WITH MODE C ON ALL, TWYS AND
RWYS, ALL ACFT READBACK ALL ASSIGNED ALTS. ...ADVS YOU HAVE INFO F.
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Granted I'm not that knowledgeable with the handbook, but I searched JO 7110.65V and wasn't able to find anything in there. The only thing I came close to finding was approaches that have runways with spacing between 2,500 and 4,300 feet, which only states to be given a 30 degree intercept for the extended centerline of the runway.

Where we came into the conversation, was ATC phraseology. I could very well be wrong, and I'd like to learn the citation of where it is, but he said if we're cleared for the visual in DTW or ORD, it's manditory to follow the offset localizer inbound. He stated that the ATIS is controlling for DTW because it has offset frequency right in the ATIS, and for ORD we have the tech briefing that says it. I argued (not argue, but disagree) with him that if we're required to follow the offset localizer, that ATC must issue a clearance that states "cleared for the visual approach, follow the localizer inbound" or something in that nature.

If I'm wrong, I'd just like to learn where it states that in the FAA handbook or regulations. On the other hand, if I'm right, I'd still like to see a source if I could as a rebuttle to the regulations.
 
If we are running visuals to 10R, we have to have the arrival established on a 20 degree intercept heading and have the pilot read back the visual approach clearance before we lose separation with any applicable 10C arrival. Most of us will issue a vector to intercept the localizer prior to issuing the visual approach clearance. To do this, we have to run a longer pattern as opposed to the old way of East Flow visuals. I, and a lot of other controllers, vector aircraft at 4,000 feet to intercept outside the 5,000 foot fix. We weren't given any direction on what to do if an aircraft decides to fly the intercept heading all the way to the extended centerline of runway 10R, as opposed to flying the localizer. I've seen a handful of aircraft fly the visual that way, and I'll tell you it looks very tight when there is a 10C arrival.

The NTZ doesn't come into play unless we are on simultaneous ILS PRM approaches.

Hope this helps.
 
Thanks Mark - Helps to know what you guys do as well. Just interesting that nothing really defines, on your end and our end, what to do if we intercept the extended centerline instead of the localizer. I cannot find any regulations that can pertain to this.

BTW, you guys do an awesome job there. Just went there the other day for the first time in a long time, and the flow was perfect. I wish you guys could teach DTW approach a few things....160 knots 30 minutes out today, joining the final at 26 miles out.
 
If I'm given a visual approach without being told to fly the localizer, I'm under no obligation to do so. I commonly get visuals off the base or downwind and will usually tighten it up as opposed to an intercept outside the FAF. Barring a visual that is - "Number 2, follow xxx, cleared visual 7R" or some other instruction.
 
z987k said:
If I'm given a visual approach without being told to fly the localizer, I'm under no obligation to do so. I commonly get visuals off the base or downwind and will usually tighten it up as opposed to an intercept outside the FAF. Barring a visual that is - "Number 2, follow xxx, cleared visual 7R" or some other instruction.
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Navajo 5 killer pop can you make a short approach?
Affirmative sir.
 
It's been a while since I've flown it, but if I recall, the PHL 26 LOC is offset about 3 degrees to the right of the extended centerline to facilitate separation with 27R traffic. When being given a visual approach to 26 with traffic landing 27R, ATC normally would ask if you had the 27R traffic in sight and then issue a "maintain visual separation" when clearing you for the visual.
 
BobDDuck said:
It's been a while since I've flown it, but if I recall, the PHL 26 LOC is offset about 3 degrees to the right of the extended centerline to facilitate separation with 27R traffic. When being given a visual approach to 26 with traffic landing 27R, ATC normally would ask if you had the 27R traffic in sight and then issue a "maintain visual separation" when clearing you for the visual.
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In PHL's case, those runway centerlines are only 1,600ft apart so they need to get that visual separation before losing standard radar sep for simultaneous arrivals.

7−4−4. APPROACHES TO MULTIPLE RUNWAYS

c.
1.
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Parallel runways separated by less than 2,500 feet. Unless approved separation is provided by ATC, an aircraft must report sighting a preceding aircraft making an approach (instrument or visual) to the adjacent parallel runway. When an aircraft reports another aircraft in sight on the adjacent final approach course and visual separation is applied, controllers must advise the succeeding aircraft to maintain visual separation. However, do not permit a heavy/B757 aircraft to overtake another aircraft. Do not permit a large aircraft to overtake a small aircraft.
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Also, that's kinda neat. 8/26 is like a one-way runway? RY 8 doesn't have threshold key markings. I guess you wouldn't want to approach over the terminal that close.

EDIT: Boy this forum hates my quote tags, I can never get them to stick together.
 
FM_Weasel said:
In PHL's case, those runway centerlines are only 1,600ft apart so they need to get that visual separation before losing standard radar sep for simultaneous arrivals.



Also, that's kinda neat. 8/26 is like a one-way runway? RY 8 doesn't have threshold key markings. I guess you wouldn't want to approach over the terminal that close.

EDIT: Boy this forum hates my quote tags, I can never get them to stick together.
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Thanks for the citation on that.

And yes, one way in and one way out. In the long term plan for phl, that runway goes away and is replaced with something more useful
 
MarkZ said:
If we are running visuals to 10R, we have to have the arrival established on a 20 degree intercept heading and have the pilot read back the visual approach clearance before we lose separation with any applicable 10C arrival. Most of us will issue a vector to intercept the localizer prior to issuing the visual approach clearance. To do this, we have to run a longer pattern as opposed to the old way of East Flow visuals. I, and a lot of other controllers, vector aircraft at 4,000 feet to intercept outside the 5,000 foot fix. We weren't given any direction on what to do if an aircraft decides to fly the intercept heading all the way to the extended centerline of runway 10R, as opposed to flying the localizer. I've seen a handful of aircraft fly the visual that way, and I'll tell you it looks very tight when there is a 10C arrival.

The NTZ doesn't come into play unless we are on simultaneous ILS PRM approaches.

Hope this helps.
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Meanwhile, in San Francisco... ;)
 
Great question! This has definitely led to some cockpit discussion being based in DTW with the runway construction. The NOTAM showed 21L was finally supposed to open back up last night though so hopefully we can go back to using 22R Z and not have to worry about this.

Now if we could just get them to use MSP in trail separation on approaches/landings we would be all set...
 
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