Vicinity of the Airport 91.103

C

ClearedToTakeoff

Well-Known Member
"For a flight under IFR or a flight not in the vicinity of an airport,"

What defines the vicinity of the airport? I've checked 1.1, or any other definitions glossary and I can't find anything. The only thing I've ever found that defines vicinity is with regards to TAFs:

"Vicinity, but not at aerodrome. In the US METAR, 5 to 10 SM from the point of observation. In the US TAF, 5 to 10 SM from the center of the runway complex. Elsewhere, within 8000m."

AIM 7-1-30

So what defines the vicinity of the airport?
 
The definition strictly depends on if the Fed that is trying to violate you under this reg got some last night.

I'm serious though, just saw a Fed make up his owns rules to a buddy a couple weeks back. Pretty awesome.
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I've always considered it within 25nm. No reason - just what I think. Although it is the sight-seeing limit.
 
I always used 25NM, here is why:

61.93
(a) General. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, a student pilot must meet the requirements of this section before—

(i) Conducting a solo cross-country flight, or any flight greater than 25 nautical miles from the airport from where the flight originated.
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If you go to 61.87(d) it notes that you need to go over preflight planning, but never specifically calls for weather information.

However in 61.93(e)(3) "Procurement and analysis of aeronautical weather reports and forecasts, including recognition of critical weather situations and estimating visibility while in flight."

It is just my opinion of course, but I believe I at least have a leg to stand on should I get hit with a violation. That said, my students are taught to conduct a basic weather brief from around lesson 5-6 and told to brief me for 5 minutes at the start of every lesson on the weather.
 
ClearedToTakeoff said:
What defines the vicinity of the airport?
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FAA Letter of Interpretation:


<style type="text/css"> <!-- @page { margin: 0.79in } P { margin-bottom: 0.08in } --> </style> January 28, 1992


This is in response to your October 24, 1991, letter in which you asked several questions about certain Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR).

[non-pertinent material deleted]

Third, you questioned the meaning of the phrase, "...in the vicinity of an airport...", as specified in FAR Section 91.103(a), Preflight action (14 CFR Sec. 91.103(a)). Section 91.103(a) provides that, "Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight. This information must include - (a) For a flight under IFR or a flight not in the vicinity of an airport, weather reports and forecasts, fuel requirements, alternatives available if the planned flight cannot be completed, and any known traffic delays of which the pilot in command has been advised by ATC;" We have no specific, fixed definition of "vicinity", but instead, interpret its meaning on a case-by-case basis.

[non-pertinent material deleted]

Please do not hesitate to contact us if you require any further information in this regard.


Sincerely,


Donald P. Byrne
 
tgrayson said:
FAA Letter of Interpretation:


<style type="text/css"> <!-- @page { margin: 0.79in } P { margin-bottom: 0.08in } --> </style> January 28, 1992


This is in response to your October 24, 1991, letter in which you asked several questions about certain Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR).

[non-pertinent material deleted]

Third, you questioned the meaning of the phrase, "...in the vicinity of an airport...", as specified in FAR Section 91.103(a), Preflight action (14 CFR Sec. 91.103(a)). Section 91.103(a) provides that, "Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight. This information must include - (a) For a flight under IFR or a flight not in the vicinity of an airport, weather reports and forecasts, fuel requirements, alternatives available if the planned flight cannot be completed, and any known traffic delays of which the pilot in command has been advised by ATC;" We have no specific, fixed definition of "vicinity", but instead, interpret its meaning on a case-by-case basis.

[non-pertinent material deleted]

Please do not hesitate to contact us if you require any further information in this regard.


Sincerely,


Donald P. Byrne
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Fascinating.
 
Case by Case Basis, I love it.

How hard is it to log into Duat/Duats instead of NOAA.
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jhugz said:
Case by Case Basis, I love it.

How hard is it to log into Duat/Duats instead of NOAA.
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Not everyone has a student pilots cert right up until it's time to solo.
 
ClearedToTakeoff said:
So every flight they are checking DUATs or calling WXBRIEF? Even just for stalls?
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A standard briefing for a flight in the local area takes 3 minutes, covers us legally, and makes the student completely confident with calling WXBRIEF, METARs, TAFs, etc by the time they solo.

It isn't practically necessary to calculate our takeoff distance or do a weight and balance for every flight, but by the time they get their licenses and take 4 people in a 172 they've had so much practice that all calculations take less than 5 minutes. Students who aren't comfortable getting weather briefings/doing calculations won't do them at all when they get their licenses.

ClearedToTakeoff said:
Yes, they should be... but is aviationweather.gov not that much easier? Are you calling for ATC delays every flight?
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From Aviationweather.gov:

The AWC Homepage "Standard Briefing" is intended as a tool to help pilots better visualize weather and weather-related hazards. It is not intended as a substitute for a weather briefing obtained from a Flight Service Station (1-800-WXBRIEF). Currently, the information contained here does not meet the FAA requirements for a pre-flight weather brief. Therefore, it's important that pilots still call and obtain a briefing from an FAA Flight Service Specialist
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Don't forget to check NOTAMs and TFR information prior to flight as well---in the vicinity of an airport or not. Also, failure to become familiar with weather information, regardless of flight distance from an airport, might be grounds for a 91.13 violation in the event weather is identified as a causal factor in an accident/incident.
 
8LBORECKXL said:
From Aviationweather.gov:
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I'm just saying it's much easier to hop on the NOAA site even though it's not a legal briefing. So thus defining vicinity is required to determine when a check on NOAA vs. calling into FSS or signing onto DUATs is required.

Lets face it, if you had your choice between using NOAA, FSS, or DUATS what do you prefer? NOAA by far, much better lay out. So if your flight to the practice area falls within the definition of Vicinity, then you could check NOAA and get your info quickly. But if not then you have to spend a god aweful 2-3 minutes longer and sign into the dot-matrix equivlant website such as DUATs or waste precious minutes on my prepaid cell phone calling FSS.

Yes this question is splitting hairs, sure 2-3 minutes extra isn't that hard... I'm just saying there is a reason to have the term Vicinity defined, thus my question. Sad to say it sounds by that letter, the FAA hasn't even defined it itself. Oh well
 
My students, and myself get a legal briefing from DUAT or the briefer before each and every flight, even if we're not leaving the pattern. It is just one more thing that they can't come take my license for. If you want to flesh it out with NOAA and avwx.gov (I do) then do so.
 
ClearedToTakeoff said:
Lets face it, if you had your choice between using NOAA, FSS, or DUATS what do you prefer?
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If I had my choice I would like to hear my standard briefing read to me by James Earl Jones.

ClearedToTakeoff said:
So if your flight to the practice area falls within the definition of Vicinity, then you could check NOAA and get your info quickly. But if not then you have to spend a god aweful 2-3 minutes longer and sign into the dot-matrix equivlant website such as DUATs or waste precious minutes on my prepaid cell phone calling FSS.
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My favorite thing in the world is hearing a pilot check in on frequency late at night, request a landing at XYZ airport, and be asked by TRACON if they happened to check notams because then they would have known the airport is closed for construction. :clap:

Or when TRACON asks a pilot if they are familiar with XYZ TFR because they just flew right into it. :clap:

Or when a pilot requests an instrument approach procedure that's been inoperative for 2 weeks. :clap:

I cannot wrap my head around why so many pilots are vehemently adverse to getting a legit briefing. Duat.com and WXbrief work fine. The only thing dumber than asking TRACON to land at a closed airfield is telling the safety inspector you didn't get a proper briefing because a telephone is too vexing to use.
 
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