VFR On Top
- Thread starter MFT1Air
- Start date
GUNIT
Well-Known Member
Regardless of whether or not you were on an IFR flight plan, you weren't in IMC so you wouldn't log the time as actual. I believe with VFR on top there is really no special logging.
(this is all also assuming you weren't under the hood w/ a safety pilot in which case you could log simulated instrument.)
(this is all also assuming you weren't under the hood w/ a safety pilot in which case you could log simulated instrument.)
ComplexHiAv8r
Well-Known Member
Where you ever in the clouds? You only log IFR time when you were using instruments for reference (in clouds, moonless night, etc.). If you climbed above the clouds and remained VFR, then it would be VFR. If you couldn't see the ground below (or see it somewhere in your slight) you need to be in communication with someone.
NOTE: I am not a CFI, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn a few nights ago.
Safe Flights!
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
Exactly what are you asking? I'm not aware of any "on top" categories in FAR 61.51 or columns for it in a logbook.
If you're talking about logging "actual instrument" time, as others point out, that reserved exclusively for times that you were in conditions where you needed to rely on the instruments in order to maintain control of the aircarft - to keep the shiny side up.
complex?
If you're talking about logging "actual instrument" time, as others point out, that reserved exclusively for times that you were in conditions where you needed to rely on the instruments in order to maintain control of the aircarft - to keep the shiny side up.
complex?
What does that mean? If you are operating under ifr, you maintain radio communication throughout and if you are operating vfr you don't need to talk to anyone unless you are in airspace that requires communication.
TXaviator
Well-Known Member
it is my understanding that this is not actually what one would call "VFR on top" as that implies an earlier IFR clearance through a BKN or OVC cloud layer flying solely by reference to instruments. (which thus would require an instrument rating)
this flight seems to just be VFR. VFR with some doodling about above some clouds, but still VFR.
note: i enjoy getting up above the clouds VFR all the time, so long is there are plenty of openings to get back down!
this flight seems to just be VFR. VFR with some doodling about above some clouds, but still VFR.
note: i enjoy getting up above the clouds VFR all the time, so long is there are plenty of openings to get back down!
Exactly what are you asking? I'm not aware of any "on top" categories in FAR 61.51 or columns for it in a logbook.
If you're talking about logging "actual instrument" time, as others point out, that reserved exclusively for times that you were in conditions where you needed to rely on the instruments in order to maintain control of the aircarft - to keep the shiny side up.
complex?
What does that mean? If you are operating under ifr, you maintain radio communication throughout and if you are operating vfr you don't need to talk to anyone unless you are in airspace that requires communication.
Well, if one is familiar with the Gulf Coast area, clouds tend to roll in between LCH and EFD which is what I was flying. Between ORG and T00, at 1815, I was unable to flying in the clouds and the fire haze, so I climbed to 4500 to clear the clouds. I was "flight following" with Beaumont TRSA, so they gave me permission to climb. I logged the actual time transitioning up through the clouds. By then, it was dark and I was flying with the glow from the lights of the city underneath the clouds until I left area where the clouds had formed. I made a comment in the comments portion, but I wasn't certain. Hence, my reason to ask.
TXaviator
Well-Known Member
gotcha, well yeah, the actual would go as actual, and the part with reference to the ground, would just be vfr. (in my opinion, not legal advice, etc!)
WAFlyBoy
Well-Known Member
You can log the time spent flying solely by reference to instruments due to meteorological phenomenon as actual instrument time. Time spent in VFR conditions above the clouds probably does not count as actual instrument time.
Please say you had an IFR clearance when you climbed "through" the clouds.
Please say you had an IFR clearance when you climbed "through" the clouds.
Can't say. I requested from Beaumont approach to climb higher. They said yes.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
Uh oh.
If you "can't say" that you were given an IFR clearance, that means you were VFR at least initially (you also mentioned that you were "flight following" which is a VFR procedure). If you "can't say" that you requested an "IFR climb" then the chances approach near certainty that you were not. "Sure, climb higher" is =not= authority to violate VFR cloud and visibility rules.
Please say your real name isn't in your profile.
milski
Well-Known Member
VFR-on-top does imply (and require IFR clearance). You don't have to go throuh a layer of clouds though - you can be VFR-on-top on SKC day.
Also, if you're planning to be VFR-on-top, you can put OTP or OTP/65 (or whatever the altitude is) as altitude in your IFR flight plan.
Nice slippery slope. . .not. I won't go into the semantics of right/wrong, so help me, please. 'Source' the exact words of IFR climb in the FAR/AIM to perform an "IFR climb" when I'm on VFR traffic advisories. I need the insight.
- So from the above you can see two things:
1. You need to be on an IFR plan.
2. You need maintain basic cloud clearances.
How do you know if you're on an IFR plan? You must receive a clearance. If it is not a standard clearance received from an IFR plan you filed, the controller doesn't know you are asking for IFR unless you specifically say so.
As you can see, VFR on top probably wasn't what you were looking for because you weren't going to comply with cloud clearances. What you wanted was an "IFR climb to VFR conditions." After that, you could request a VFR on top once you can maintain your cloud clearances.
Another option is to request VFR over the top, which is a VFR procedure - but in that case you couldn't fly into clouds either.
At any rate, it is in your best interest when getting a "pop up" or an ad-hoc clearance to make sure it is said, and well-understood that you want, and they are giving you an IFR clearance.
Flying in NY airspace one morning while VFR, the weather got pretty bad out of nowhere. I asked for a IFR clearance from NY approach to my destination, but they said their computers were acting funny and just to climb higher for now. I told him I couldn't or else I'd be in the clouds. So he said "You are on an IFR plan now, climb to..." And that's all I needed to hear.
TXaviator
Well-Known Member
im not right/wronging you personally.
but it is absolutely wrong to violate VFR cloud clearance/vis minimums if you are not SPECIFICALLY on an IFR clearance.
wrong, and DANGEROUS.
im guessing (only a guess) you are not instrument rated or this might be more clear (i am not an instructor so i dont know a great way of explaining it maybe).
but it is absolutely wrong to violate VFR cloud clearance/vis minimums if you are not SPECIFICALLY on an IFR clearance.
wrong, and DANGEROUS.
im guessing (only a guess) you are not instrument rated or this might be more clear (i am not an instructor so i dont know a great way of explaining it maybe).
. . .and I'm not taking anything illustrated or addressed in a derogatory perspective. My point was simply trying to identify how to log the time I flew while VFR from point A to point B, and I had to climb higher to maintain VFR around dusk. My destination was clear with 10 mile vis, no clouds; airports in between had no ATIS. Heading west, clouds at 2500 made it unwise for me to maintain that altitude. I simply wished to insure the .2 actual was okay as I climbed to maintain VFR ABOVE the clouds.
You just log it normally. You weren't in actual. If you didn't get an IFR clearance you better have not logged any actual.
VFR over the clouds is still VFR. You don't log it as instrument or any other thing.
And I suggest you do not make a habit of using VFR instructions to enter IMC. It's not even implied and it's specifically not allowed or legal. I'd aslo recommend not posting on the internet when you take such questionable actions.
VFR over the clouds is still VFR. You don't log it as instrument or any other thing.
And I suggest you do not make a habit of using VFR instructions to enter IMC. It's not even implied and it's specifically not allowed or legal. I'd aslo recommend not posting on the internet when you take such questionable actions.
WAFlyBoy
Well-Known Member
So you were in the clouds for .2 hours? Or did you maintain VFR cloud clearance at all times?