VA "Crack Down" On University Flight Programs

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Flush!

Well-Known Member
So, it looks like the VA has mandated that our 141 programs adhere to FSDO minimum hours for certification, and no additional flight fees will be covered by the VA beyond those hours. So, what we're being told is that everything beyond the 35 hours required under 141 to get your private pilot will have to be paid out of pocket, by the veteran.

Has anyone else at any of the other post 9/11 approved programs been experiencing this..? We were completely caught off guard...
 
Haven't experienced it, but have heard about it. Couple of RW 141 schools billed six figures per student, apparently. I believe those schools were decertified or banned from VA funding. Part of the fallout, I guess
 
TC_ABM said:
Haven't experienced it, but have heard about it. Couple of RW 141 schools billed six figures per student, apparently. I believe those schools were decertified or banned from VA funding. Part of the fallout, I guess
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It will be interesting to see what comes of that because the schools were submitting the bills to the VA, using the VA's rules, and the VA kept paying them. I'm not sure the VA will be able to unilaterally mandate that a particular school be "banned" just because they charged a lot of money. As of today, the VA has provided no policy, instruction, or regulation that says that what those schools did was illegal, or against the regulations. Somebody is gonna get sued!!!
 
Flush!,

It's pretty difficult to sue the USG over policy changes. A quick search brought up this article from last month that details some of the information that led to the two RW programs being banned.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-helicopters-20150327-story.html#page=1

BL: The schools didn't meet the 15% non-veteran participation rate. VA let it slide, but was then billed $500K for one RW ppl and over $40M by the two schools alone, so they began enforcing that policy.

Now, I'm sure selective enforcement isn't going over too well. I would expect to see VA strictly enforce program rules for all VA-eligible flight training programs fairly soon.

It's going to suck, for sure. I was involved in a similar discussion on another board and there's a lot of emotion tied to this issue. I was just remind everyone that's eligible for any government benefits that the programs can change or be eliminated entirely at any time.

Personally, with the crack down on for profit schools, this issue, and a couple of others, I expect to see some pretty significant changes to Post 9/11 GIB in the next couple of years. I believe those changes will be legislative changes since a lot of the regulatory agencies don't/can't/won't enforce program administration in a responsible manner.
 
TC_ABM said:
Flush!,

It's pretty difficult to sue the USG over policy changes.
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There is no written policy change... That's the problem. It's pretty difficult to sue the government regardless but that doesn't stop people from trying, and occasionally winning. Plus, the VA doesn't exactly have the best reputation lately, with regards to the treatment of veterans, so that could work to our favor. The government can change the policy but they have yet to formally do so. Under the current rules, they pay for 100% of tuition and fees for flying as part of a degree program, at a public university. Until that is amended formally, I don't think they can renege on their promise to the veterans. It's at least unethical, and at worst illegal.

We're all aware of the helicopter school, and how they gamed the system but the government wrote the rules. You can't hold a flight school, or their students responsible for the ineptness of the federal government.
 
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Flush!,

I agree the VA (and most USG entities) don't have the best reputation. I haven't used my Post 9-11 GIB for flight training, but I have used it to help put both my kids through college. The problem with tuition and fees is that, in the small print for non-flying programs, the fees have to be directly related to the tuition. There also is a cap on how much can be paid out.

When I look at the VA page on flight training (http://www.benefits.va.gov/gibill/flight_training.asp) it looks to me like there are some policy limits but, I have no experience with that side of the house. Again, I know this is an emotional issue and I don't fault your line of thinking. If I was in your shoes, I'd be pretty pissed. And then I would think back to all the changes in my AFSC that have occurred in the past 18 years and remember that sometimes the fickle finger finds you and there's not much you can do to change that.

Funny story. My son at A&M got a parking ticket. A&M classifies parking tickets for students as a directly related fee. VA paid the ticket. My daughter, different university gets parking ticket, it's not classified as a directly related fee, but instead a legal master with the university. No reimbursement there.
 
TC_ABM said:
Flush!,

I agree the VA (and most USG entities) don't have the best reputation. I haven't used my Post 9-11 GIB for flight training, but I have used it to help put both my kids through college. The problem with tuition and fees is that, in the small print for non-flying programs, the fees have to be directly related to the tuition. There also is a cap on how much can be paid out. When I look at the VA page on flight training (http://www.benefits.va.gov/gibill/flight_training.asp) it looks to me like there are some policy limits but, I have no experience with that side of the house.
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At public universities where flight is required as a part of the degree program, 100% of the flight fees (and related expenses) are currently covered by the VA. The logic being that if you can't graduate without it, how can the VA justify not paying for it? Private universities have a cap. The problem with what they're making us do now is that by setting the limit at the FSDO minimums, if we get bad weather and have to divert, or have similar issues beyond our control, we will be forced to pay out of pocket for anything beyond the minimum required hours. As it is, those hour marks are nearly impossible to hit anyway. How many people do you know who got their private in 35 hours?

TC_ABM said:
Again, I know this is an emotional issue and I don't fault your line of thinking. If I was in your shoes, I'd be pretty pissed. And then I would think back to all the changes in my AFSC that have occurred in the past 18 years and remember that sometimes the fickle finger finds you and there's not much you can do to change that.
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Oh, we are! Most of are used to being screwed by the VA though... (especially those of us who have dealt with the VA medical facilities)

TC_ABM said:
Funny story. My son at A&M got a parking ticket. A&M classifies parking tickets for students as a directly related fee. VA paid the ticket. My daughter, different university gets parking ticket, it's not classified as a directly related fee, but instead a legal master with the university. No reimbursement there.
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I had to pay one I got at Auburn; I'd like to know how A&M got away with that?!?!?! I don't think the VA should have to pay that kind of stuff, necessarily.
 
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