V2 + 10

[C150J]

Hi guys,

For those of you who operate turbine equipment, how "hard" is it to climb up to acceleration/clean-up altitude at V2 + 10 (per climb-out criteria)? Does your operation have a lot of pilots who climb out faster? We have a systemic issue here, were a lot of folks are climbing out at much faster speeds. Definitely not blaming anyone here, just trying to open up discussion.


Thanks!
J.

 

[Dugie8]

Depends on the aircraft.

V2 + 10, in my mind, is a OEI thing, not all engines operating. Maybe on Turbo Props, I don't recall how the Dash8 performed.

On the jets I have flown, if you try to maintatin V2 + 10 you will have a ridiculous pitch angle. For the most part, you try to pitch for an attitude that will give you V2 + 10 or so, IF you lose an engine.

 

[C150J]

Interesting - this is in our normal takeoff profile. Does yours just dictate that you meet the required climb gradients?

 

[Dugie8]

Interesting - this is in our normal takeoff profile. Does yours just dictate that you meet the required climb gradients?

The climb gradient thing is a WHOLE nuther can of worms.

V2 is an OEI speed, it does nothing for you on all engines. Now, some aircraft your performance is such that the pitch angle for all engines and OEI gives the same relative speed (within 10 to 20 knots), some don't. Your weight plays a huge role too.

Look at it this way too, if you have passed V1 and are already off the ground and flying, what does V2 + 10 with all engines give you, vs flying a pitch attitude? If you airplane has the performance to accelerate to 200 or 250 knots at the same attitude that OEI wil give V2, then why pitch up farther?

On the other hand, if your performance is such that all engines and OEI have the same relative pitch, then lowering the nose too much could result in a descent if you lose an engine once airborne.

It all depends on the flight charachteristics of the aircraft.

 

[SteveC]

Two questions:
1. What is the exact wording of your Normal Climb profile?
2. What aircraft type?


As to our company SOP;

Citation Bravo - V2+10 (400' AGL) is the minimum flap retraction speed, normal 2 engine ops.
Climb profile:
200 knots until 4nm from airport or above 2500 feet AGL, then...
230 knots minus 1 knot per 1000' altitude (max. 0.35 AOA).

Lear 40/45 - V2+25 (400' AGL) is minimum flap retraction speed, normal 2 engine ops.
Climb profile:
200 knots until 4nm from airport or above 2500 feet AGL, then...
250 knots to 10,000 feet, then...
275 knots transistioning to 0.73 Mach.

 

[minitour]

Hi guys,

For those of you who operate turbine equipment, how "hard" is it to climb up to acceleration/clean-up altitude at V2 + 10 (per climb-out criteria)? Does your operation have a lot of pilots who climb out faster? We have a systemic issue here, were a lot of folks are climbing out at much faster speeds. Definitely not blaming anyone here, just trying to open up discussion.


Thanks!
J.

As was stated above, we also fly V2+10 with an engine out. And then it's really V2 unless the flaps have already come up...then it's V2+10. ...unless we've done a flaps 0 takeoff (not something we do often), then it's just V2.

We put the nose 10 DNU and pretty much park it there (sometimes we'll go 15 and I've seen some guys go as high as 20 when empty with a CG near the aft limit-they get sloppy at times-but never with pax in the back) for a while. 10 through the mid 20s depending on temperature and then 7 DNU through the mid 30s and then about 5 up to 410 works for our max rate climbs, which we like.

OEI would be a different story. I suppose 8-10 DNU works for roughly V2. To be honest, in an actual engine failure, I'd just put it in FLC Mode (IAS for some of you probably) and bug V2 and let the FD tell me where to put the nose. Works pretty well.

If I lost AHRS1 (FD) and an engine.................I'd punt. I don't know where I'm going without the little pink wingy-things. :bandit:

-mini

 

[C150J]

Thanks guys. I'm trying to figure out where this number came from in our normal takeoff profile, as I've always understood Dugie's arguments concerning V2 having nothing to do with all engines operating.

 

[BobDDuck]

As a fellow Arctic RJ operator, we are seeing the same issue. Apparently our FOQA system triggers for faster than V2+10 below 1000 AGL and the data is piling up.

Personally, in the 200 when heavy I don't have an issue maintaining it, but the 700 requires a ridiculous deck angle, especially when not derating, to keep it below V2+10. I find that often times I am closer to Vt in the climbout.

 

[Baronman]

On the ERJ we maintain 14 degrees until acceleration height which usually result in the plane accelerating to V2 + 20 or more. Certain designated airports require higher angles in which case it's designated in our Jepps to maintain usually V2+10.

 

[Crockrocket94]

Two questions:


Citation Bravo - V2+10 (400' AGL) is the minimum flap retraction speed, normal 2 engine ops.
Climb profile:
200 knots until 4nm from airport or above 2500 feet AGL, then...
230 knots minus 1 knot per 1000' altitude (max. 0.35 AOA).

.

I thought it was 220 knots minus 1 knot per 1000' as per the Bravo AFM.

Maybe im nuts (very possible)

 

[SteveC]

I thought it was 220 knots minus 1 knot per 1000' as per the Bravo AFM.

Maybe im nuts (very possible)

Nah, you're right - I (sorta) mistyped. Our company SOP says 230 knots to 10,000', then 220 knots minus 1 knot per thousand (which has an inherent built-in contradiction, but I'm not going to go THERE ).

 

[Trip7]

As a fellow Arctic RJ operator, we are seeing the same issue. Apparently our FOQA system triggers for faster than V2+10 below 1000 AGL and the data is piling up.

Personally, in the 200 when heavy I don't have an issue maintaining it, but the 700 requires a ridiculous deck angle, especially when not derating, to keep it below V2+10. I find that often times I am closer to Vt in the climbout.

Agree 100% On the 200 when heavy no problem at all. When light you really can't smoothly rotate or you'll go blasting past V2+10. Got to basically yank the airplane off the ground.

Now on the 700/900 if you're light with a full rated thrust T/O I think it might be impossible to maintain to V2+10 without having quite a wild ride on T/O

 

[Screaming_Emu]

As a fellow Arctic RJ operator, we are seeing the same issue. Apparently our FOQA system triggers for faster than V2+10 below 1000 AGL and the data is piling up.

Over here at EV we do V2+15 on a normal climbout until 1000AGL then up to 250. Kinda strange that different airlines with the same aircraft would operate them differently.

 

[minitour]

Over here at EV we do V2+15 on a normal climbout until 1000AGL then up to 250. Kinda strange that different airlines with the same aircraft would operate them differently.

Why is that strange?

If it's:
1) Legal,
2) Safe,
3) Within the limits of the aircraft and AFM, and
4) In compliance with ATC clearances...

...chances are, the feds will approve it for the operation. Or "accept". I can never remember which stuff is "approved" and which is "accepted". I think the manuals are "approved" and the profiles are "accepted", so I guess in this case it would be "accepted".:dunno:

..........not that it really matters. You get the point.

-mini

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Why is that strange?

If it's:
1) Legal,
2) Safe,
3) Within the limits of the aircraft and AFM, and
4) In compliance with ATC clearances...

...chances are, the feds will approve it for the operation. Or "accept". I can never remember which stuff is "approved" and which is "accepted". I think the manuals are "approved" and the profiles are "accepted", so I guess in this case it would be "accepted".:dunno:

..........not that it really matters. You get the point.

-mini

I guess it's strange to me because the two companies use the exact same plane for the exact same knid of flyingso you would think that the manufacturer would say how it should be flown and both companies do it that way. The fact that there are differences means that somewhere, at one of the companies someone said "hey, I have an idea"... And so it was.

 

[minitour]

I guess it's strange to me because the two companies use the exact same plane for the exact same knid of flyingso you would think that the manufacturer would say how it should be flown and both companies do it that way. The fact that there are differences means that somewhere, at one of the companies someone said "hey, I have an idea"... And so it was.

Nah. The manufacturer probably doesn't want the liability associated with telling people how to drive it.

Just "here's what you shouldn't do" and cash the check.

If I were building an airplane, I'd hope and pray that everyone came up with their own profiles! Then I can say "hey......t'wasn't me!" :laff:

-mini

 

[Crockrocket94]

Nah, you're right - I (sorta) mistyped. Our company SOP says 230 knots to 10,000', then 220 knots minus 1 knot per thousand (which has an inherent built-in contradiction, but I'm not going to go THERE ).

After I reread your post it said COMPANY SOP method, so i felt like a dick typing that. Sorry man, im not trying to be a pain.

 

[Polar742]

From a 121 perspective, at least in the planes I flew, the Company's VolI must be inline with the manufacture's Volume I.

There will be an all-engines operative profile in Bombardier's manual for takeoff for airspeed guidance.

I've seen this for BAe, SAAB, Embraer and Boeing. I don't imagine the ski-doo jet is all that different.

 

[seagull]

Hi guys,

For those of you who operate turbine equipment, how "hard" is it to climb up to acceleration/clean-up altitude at V2 + 10 (per climb-out criteria)? Does your operation have a lot of pilots who climb out faster? We have a systemic issue here, were a lot of folks are climbing out at much faster speeds. Definitely not blaming anyone here, just trying to open up discussion.


Thanks!
J.

I have flown, (and it has been company procedure) V2+10 in every jet I've flown, and we always have used V2 for engine out. Never been an issue in any of the aircraft I have flown, but I have not ever qualified on a twin jet, only quads and tri's. I have seen pitch over 20 degrees, which is not an issue.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Beech 1900
V2 + 10 = 38 degrees nose up, climb rate through the roof, you are going lunar (even on one engine)

Saab 340
V2 + 10 = 8 degrees nose up, climb rate sux, underpowered gutless wonder won't climb unless your empty in the winter

Those are the two turboprops I flew.