V1 Speed and Intersection Takeoffs

Bigey

Well-Known Member
So I was at LAX last night with Captainchris87 and we were spotting. I had my scanner with me (yes i'm a dork bring it!). There was a 737 that was asked if they wanted to do an intersection takeoff. He happily agreed, and they shot off (i believe at taxiway F).

The question popped into my head, isnt your V1 speed based off current conditions/weather, weight, and runway lenghts? And if so, if you do an intersection takeoff thats lets say 2000 feet from the threshold, how do you know your V1 is good? What if you're good to takeoff from a 8,000 runway, but now that you departed from Echo or Foxtrot, you now only have 6,200 of runway left.

How is it all possible to be safe?
 
It's on the flight release. If you weigh less than the maximum for that int takeoff, you're good to go. Same v speeds because the speeds are based on your current weight which is less than the maximium for that takeoff so no need to change them.
 
Because he probably had performance data and had already planned for and had calculated on the intersection takeoff prior to taxiing out. Many times if we know we might get an intersection T/O we plan ahead of time. If we don't get it then no harm done and we're fat on performance. If we get it we're ready.
 
It's on the flight release. If you weigh less than the maximum for that int takeoff, you're good to go. Same v speeds because the speeds are based on your current weight which is less than the maximium for that takeoff so no need to change them.

So then if i'm understanding correctly, it doesnt matter about the length of the runway? Your V1 speeds are set up without the runway length correct?

Because he probably had performance data and had already planned for and had calculated on the intersection takeoff prior to taxiing out. Many times if we know we might get an intersection T/O we plan ahead of time. If we don't get it then no harm done and we're fat on performance. If we get it we're ready.

I see. It kinda seemed though like tower just kinda shot him the intersection departure because there was a heavy 747 ahead of him. How might one have prior knowledge of an intersection departure?
 
So then if i'm understanding correctly, it doesnt matter about the length of the runway? Your V1 speeds are set up without the runway length correct

V1 is the same as Refusal Speed...which DOES depend on actual runway length.

It's the maximum speed that you can accelerate to, lose an engine, and stop in the remaining runway distance.
 
We use ACARS for our takeoff data, you can input several runways and/or intersections from a runway. I'm going to guess they departed 25R, so in the selected runways we would enter 25R and 25R/F. This is usually done at the gate to plan ahead. Then when the tower or ground asks if we could accept an intersection departure from 25R at Foxtrot we could hit "Next Page" from the takeoff data page in the FMS to see if the takeoff doable. Often it results in no changes in V-Speeds. Other times the speeds and even flap settings might changed based on the difference in runway length. If the change in runway length is great you could even see a standing/static takeoff using max thrust.
 

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Bigey, you are correct. The departing aircraft likely had takeoff data for full length and the intersection departure. V1 is indeed affected by runway length as some have said here.

Airliners have performance tables in them that allow the pilots to manually calculate V speeds if a situation like this comes up and it wasn't planned for in advance. You can not legally depart a runway from an intersection unless you have approved performance data that says it is safe to do so.
 
Bigey, you are correct. The departing aircraft likely had takeoff data for full length and the intersection departure. V1 is indeed affected by runway length as some have said here.

Airliners have performance tables in them that allow the pilots to manually calculate V speeds if a situation like this comes up and it wasn't planned for in advance. You can not legally depart a runway from an intersection unless you have approved performance data that says it is safe to do so.

Indeed. I imagine CAL and the guys next door do it the same way in that we've got ATOGS books that have performance data for all the runways and intersections we're allowed to depart from in the system.

They're pretty big books, and have takeoff data for reduced power (flex) takeoffs, regular settings, E-TO settings (on the XR), blah blah blah. It takes two books to cover all the airports we operate out of.
 
Granted, performance is performance but in today's world, you MUST have data that shows you can depart from intersection 'x' to be legal. No rule of thumb.

Our t/o data came with takeoff performance from a number of intersections and also with different thrust and flap settings (derate, assumed temp, etc). But without that info, no you can't just take an intersection departure. At least, we could not.
 
Indeed. I imagine CAL and the guys next door do it the same way in that we've got ATOGS books that have performance data for all the runways and intersections we're allowed to depart from in the system.

They're pretty big books, and have takeoff data for reduced power (flex) takeoffs, regular settings, E-TO settings (on the XR), blah blah blah. It takes two books to cover all the airports we operate out of.

They don't trust us pilots to have those, so the dispatchers have 'em. If ACARS is deferred, and it's not on either the preliminary or closeout MGL, it's full length. If ACARS is working, it takes about 10 seconds to put in 36L-M2 to get the t/o data for 36L from taxiway M2.
 
Bigey,

However the performance is derived, be it from Dispatch or an onboard system (tablet PC or Books), you MUST have the legal numbers to depart.

Now, if you're a sharp guy and know the aircraft and the airport, you'll probably already have numbers for the intersection. The rules allow that if you have numbers for the bypass, you can use the full length with no issue.

Now, just because you have the numbers for full length and you know the plane will take less runway, you still can't do it due to the FAR requirements.

I had this question alot during performance recurrent. Great question.
 
V1 is the same as Refusal Speed...which DOES depend on actual runway length.

It's the maximum speed that you can accelerate to, lose an engine, and stop in the remaining runway distance.


Hacker, in big jets V1 can be based on a lot more than just the Refusal speed, and it usually varies from jet to jet.

I'll give an example. In the KC-135 S1 (decision speed, or go-no go speed... same as V1) was the largest of Vmcg, Vcefs, Vnefs unless Vrotate was less than the largest of those three, in which case it was Vrotate. In no case could the S1 be larger than Vrefusal or Vmax brake, or you would be in a take-off No go scenario. (Basically you aren't allowed to take off).

So, some definitions:

Vmcg or V "min control on the ground"- the minimum speed at which you could lose the downwind, outside engine (worst case) and still maintain directional control within particular limits (which I can no longer remember) and without pulling power on any other engines or using differential braking. So basically, the min speed at which you can continue the take-off and maintain directional control of the airplane if you lose the worst case engine. Vmcg was a controllability number, rather than a performance number. There was also a Vmca- min control airborne, but it was guaranteed to be less than Vrotate, so we didn't worry about it.

Vcef or "critical engine failure speed"- The speed at which if you accelerated to it on all engines operating, and then lost an engine it would take the exact same distance to continue the take-off as it would to stop the airplane. That distance was defined as the critical field length. Vcefs is a performance number, and it basically says that before you reach that speed, stopping takes less distance than going. After that speed going takes less distance than stopping, and AT Vcefs, they're the same.

Vnef or V "non-critical engine failure speed"- Some civillian airplanes define a non-critical engine failure speed that is based off of the engine that is NOT the worst case failing... but that is not what a KC-135 Vnef meant. In the 135, Vnef was basically an adjusted refusal speed. You took the actual runway available and subtracted 2000' and with this adjusted runway you computed a refusal speed. This adjusted refusal speed was our Vnef, and basically if Vnef was greater than Vcef you had a "non-critical takeoff." If Vcef was bigger, you had a critical takeoff. In a critical takeoff, we were not allowed to reduce the thrust, unless we needed to for controllability. It is a stop speed, but it allowed us to keep a bad airplane on the ground longer than using Vcef or Vmcg for decision speed, and still retain a 2000' margin of safety on stopping. We would only use these numbers if the take-off were a non-critical scenario, or in other words, if the take-off were easy to make on the available runway.

Vrot - Rotate speed. self explanatory

Vrefusal- Refusal speed. The fastest speed you could accelerate to and still stop in the remaining runway available. It's a stop speed.

Vmax brake- The fastest speed you could accelerate to and still stop the airplane before the brakes exploded. Interestingly enough, sometimes this number was smaller than Vrefusal, and if it was it meant that your Vrefusal number was bogus. It's also a stop speed.

So the philosophy was basically that you had to be faster than your fastest minimum "Go" speed, and still slower than your slowest maximum "Stop" speed to have a safe take-off.

Of course, we had a mission computer that would compute it all, or it would take all day to do it by hand. The guys who flew tankers before the computer would do it, though.
 
On the Saab with no computers involved except the ones that spit out the pieces of paper its listed with each runway, and then the runway intersection. So each runway might have 3 or 4 parts to it.

The Saab is such a small aircraft that on a runway like the ones at IAD nothing really changes. If ground suddenly asks if we have the numbers for intersection say Zulu departure, Ill quickly pull out the paperwork and look for 30Z and then give the thumbs up and we will go for it. Then I quickly look at our take off weight and see if anything changed. Most of the time nothing has changed.

We have a few things involved in the speed decision though. If its extremely hot and we are say 5000lbs under our MTOW then we can reduce the power from 100% to say 88%. We then have an assumed temperature that goes along with that. Say we can reduce it to 88% but we have to assume the temperature is 45C outside. So when we look at the chart we look at our TOW and our assumed temperature for our numbers.

When its rated power, 100%, we will just use the actual OAT to come up with our speeds.

But I guess all this doesnt really matter on the Saab because our V1 and Vr are normally either the same, or 1 or 2 knots off. And at least on my side the airspeed indicator is shaking so much that it kind of wobbles +/- 3 degrees anyway, so you just kind of call them all pretty much at the same time.

The only time V1 and Vr are 5 or 6 knots off is when we are extremely light, think 1 or 2 people in the back.
 
Now, just because you have the numbers for full length and you know the plane will take less runway, you still can't do it due to the FAR requirements.

Come again?

If the performance on the back of the checklist says I need 3,230' you're telling me I have to use all 9,000' of runway?

...normally I just tell ground or tower "I can take 4,700' if an intersection helps" (we add 1500' to "book numbers" for rolling takeoffs) and they point me in the right direction since they have those numbers and I don't have them readily available.

Are you saying that's "illegal"? I don't see how, but I'm willing to learn.

-mini
 
I think Polar is saying that in a large aircraft, just because you know it can go earlier, if you dont have the numbers, you cant do it legally.
So you guys get numbers specific to each intersection on each runway that would be available/legal to use?

-mini
 
I thought that's what y'all were saying, but couldn't put it together since I haven't seen anything like that. It's always just "this is what you need to takeoff" and then if I use an intersection, that's fine...as long as the distance from the intersection to the end is = or > the number in the book.

-mini
 
So you guys get numbers specific to each intersection on each runway that would be available/legal to use?

-mini

Yup. At my airline with my non computerized aircraft, dispatch will send with your release, a list of all the runways, and then runways with every intersection possible. Its almost 6 pages long just for runways and is a complete waste most of the time.
 
So you guys get numbers specific to each intersection on each runway that would be available/legal to use?

-mini

Actually, specific numbers for:

-Airport
-Runway
-Intersection
-Weight
-Pressure (factored into temp)
-Temperature
-Flap setting
-Thrust setting

As I said, it's a lot of data, spread over two big 4" thick books just for the airports we serve. No data? No go.
 
Actually, specific numbers for:

-Airport
-Runway
-Intersection
-Weight
-Pressure (factored into temp)
-Temperature
-Flap setting
-Thrust setting

As I said, it's a lot of data, spread over two big 4" thick books just for the airports we serve. No data? No go.

You guys have books with all the data permanently there?

We get all that same info on every single release.
 
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