Upss!! Lost Jetlink in App Area at Mexico City..

Geeze, 3 times the controller told the other pilots on frequency that the "Embraer is lost and doesn't know what he's doing".

Jtsastre
 
That procedure is a handful, especially in bad weather. Im curious what happened. Radar down there is at times sketchy, and I wonder if the controller got a bad return and was in a bad mood and just decided to make an issue of it. Usually they leave the piloting up to the pilots...just kinda the way it is down there. They expect you to know what you are doing.
 
triple7 said:
That procedure is a handful, especially in bad weather. Im curious what happened. Radar down there is at times sketchy, and I wonder if the controller got a bad return and was in a bad mood and just decided to make an issue of it. Usually they leave the piloting up to the pilots...just kinda the way it is down there. They expect you to know what you are doing.
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However the point of having two professional pilots sitting up front is because they are supposed to be able to handle "handfuls". If you can't then what on earth are you doing up there.

Also on radar and the controller, it's Mexico City, which I'm assuming is the busiest airport in their country. I doubt the controllers or radar are any less capable than those found at ATL or ORD.

I see the 145 SIC @ KEWR, so maybe you are a jetlinker, but try not to take personal offense. Maybe you know something about MEX that I don't, but the above is just the way it looks to an outsider.
 
I've been to MEX at least 6 times at day/night and in good and really crappy weather. It can be a handful to say the least.

Add that many times crews are unfamiliar with the airport and do next to nothing to prepare for the arrival. I fully expect that the FO has reviewed the arrival into MEX at some point prior to us getting into the plane for that flight. Doing it on the fly, at night or in weather is not going to cut it. You shouldn't treat this as another flight into Rochester, NY.

Furthermore XJT has even tailor made a Jepp Page explaining how the arrival, arrival transition and approaches should be set up and flown. It gives examples of how to set up the NAVs, where to configure etc....

So here you are, you prepare for the arrival, the Mateo transition etc....then all of a sudden MEX approach clears your to some other point for the VOR approach instead of the ILS. They'll throw curveballs and if you've never been or aren't sharp you can get behind.
 
I guess the lesson out of this is that if you're not ready, maybe you should ask for more time. It may be embarrassing but atleast you're not getting into trouble.

I sometimes turn down approaches and visuals to runways that were different to what ATC originally assigned because I didn't have the time or opportunity to brief the approach to myself. Yes I could probably brief the approach on the fly and ad lib as I go, but that leaves me little time to check notams, my turnoff, and other sorts of interesting stuff. Making those sudden changes can compound your workload and the next thing you know, you're way behind! Usually, if I don't brief it I won't do it unless I'm really familiar with the airport.
 
I just listened to the audio..

For those not familiar with the MEX ILS5R, the procedure begins at Mateo VOR (SMO). The arrival ends with the plane flying over LUCIA, then 16 miles to Mateo VOR .

Following Mateo is a 9 mile segment on the 160Radial to a cross radial where you can begin a turn to intercept the ILS. Throughout the procedure there are DMEs where you can descend as well as an NDB marking where a descent can be made.

The controller gave them a vector/clearance direct to the Mateo VOR at 12000', had they been on the published arrival the MEA is also 12,000'. From there I don't think they continued with the procedure but rather flew to intercept the ILS on their own.

I'd also add the map display on the Honeywell doesn't depict these things as perfectly drawn lines etc...It shows some points. To me it sounds like they were just unfamiliar, and it didn't help that they were stepping on each other on the radio. The controllers instructions sound fairly clear to me though.
 
Ya it sorta seems like a bad deal, but again professional pilots. I'm really not trying to put anyone down. This is so easy for a CFII w/ no schedule to keep to armchair quarterback, but definitely give me a vector out of there so I have time to re-brief and set up so I can understand what is happening. There are mountains around MEX and the last thing you'd want is to be the next Cali, Colombia, flying to the wrong fix or something like that because you got behind.
 
Soku39 said:
Ya it sorta seems like a bad deal, but again professional pilots. I'm really not trying to put anyone down. This is so easy for a CFII w/ no schedule to keep to armchair quarterback, but definitely give me a vector out of there so I have time to re-brief and set up so I can understand what is happening. There are mountains around MEX and the last thing you'd want is to be the next Cali, Colombia, flying to the wrong fix or something like that because you got behind.
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You dont think these guys were trying to be proffesional?? I am pretty confident that they went down there with every intention of being as professional a crew as anyone. Baron is right, that approach/transition is a show, to say the least. Ive done MEX a number of times. Yes it is a busy airport, and yes you do need to prepare in advance. EVERYONE at xjt knows about MEX, and everyone knows about that approach. Even on my best day in there, if you fly that approach perfectly as its depicted you almost always overshoot the localizer, end up high on the glide upon intercept. And it sounded like he wanted 210kts on the approach. Most of us like to be gear down and flaps 22 or so with around 160 knots before the lead radial. Its just a crappy setup down there. There is a pretty nice sized ridge to the west of the approach path. So yes, you better do your best to do things correctly. Who knows what happened down there, whether they were vmc or imc,day or night. But I guarantee if you start that approach with your head up your a$$ you will certainly be behind. Its a 2 hours flight so even if you didn't review things before getting in the plane, there is plenty of time for a thorough brief. Maybe these guys were VMC and decided to give themselves a vector to the final. Who knows but knowing my peers I am pretty sure they didnt take MEX lightly.
 
Baronman said:
Furthermore XJT has even tailor made a Jepp Page explaining how the arrival, arrival transition and approaches should be set up and flown. It gives examples of how to set up the NAVs, where to configure etc....
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i think that page is the problem. People get so caught up in trying to fly that profile they get flustered when ATC doesnt do what it says they were going to do, and it happens like that every time.

It should just say "slow down early and be slow enough to get flaps 45 in before turning final. fly the airplane". Way too much heads down time from people staring at the page.
 
KLB said:
I sometimes turn down approaches and visuals to runways that were different to what ATC originally assigned because I didn't have the time or opportunity to brief the approach to myself. Yes I could probably brief the approach on the fly and ad lib as I go, but that leaves me little time to check notams, my turnoff, and other sorts of interesting stuff. Making those sudden changes can compound your workload and the next thing you know, you're way behind! Usually, if I don't brief it I won't do it unless I'm really familiar with the airport.
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MEX likes to change runways at the last minute because they messed up spacing or something. And the turnoff.... until the new terminal was ready down there we didnt even know if it was going to be a left or right turn until we were on the rollout and the tower let us know where we were parking that day.
 
triple7 said:
You dont think these guys were trying to be proffesional??
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I just meant in the not making mistakes department. From all of the above, I will give the benefit of doubt. Again, not an airline pilot, so I'm just making observations based on what I heard, not my experience in a jet. It's good that things like are discussed. Maybe next time you guys go into recurrent maybe you can request this approach in the sim. Just trying to be constructive.
 
Their radio technique isn't too hot either...

Individually pronounce all digits of your callsign and heading...


In mexico they expect you to be able to do things on your own... There are ALOT of high rocks around this airport and it's a very tight corridor on arrival. You've gotta be on your A-game going into there.

What a terrible and unprofessional job!
 
Not to be a little off the topic but talk about professionalism-Controller should also be speaking in English to the other Mexican carriers too!
 
n77j said:
Not to be a little off the topic but talk about professionalism-Controller should also be speaking in English to the other Mexican carriers too!
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You've never flown outside our borders, have you?

Talk to a montreal center controller in french, get ATC service in french.
Talk to a monterey center controller in spanish, get ATC service in spanish.

Talk to either in english, get ATC service in english. If you want the added Situational Awareness of hearing what other planes are doing, its a small vocabulary to learn. Just learn the words for "heading", "climb", "descent" and your numbers. Not hard.

And as Peanuckle said, outside the US use ICAO phraseology, which means saying all your call numbers individually. Its "tree tree two one", not "thirty-three twenty-one".
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
Their radio technique isn't too hot either...

Individually pronounce all digits of your callsign and heading...


In mexico they expect you to be able to do things on your own... There are ALOT of high rocks around this airport and it's a very tight corridor on arrival. You've gotta be on your A-game going into there.

What a terrible and unprofessional job!
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I agree the original error stunk...From there I'm sure they were busy, the freq was busy with the controller telling others what was going on etc.

Aside from that I'd bet XJT does more Mexico flying than any other US airline (flights/day). Believe me the vast majority know the peculiarities of flying down there, which VORs stink, where the WX usually shows up etc...And I'm not just talking MEX but all the hole in the wall airports, Saltillo, Puebla, Oaxaca, San Luis Potosi....
 
Soku39 said:
I just meant in the not making mistakes department. From all of the above, I will give the benefit of doubt. Again, not an airline pilot, so I'm just making observations based on what I heard, not my experience in a jet. It's good that things like are discussed. Maybe next time you guys go into recurrent maybe you can request this approach in the sim. Just trying to be constructive.
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Yeah, sorry if i came off rude. I know what you were trying to say and I appreciate it. Who knows what happened to get them in that predicament. Mexico is a different type of flying for sure. You are expected to know what you are doing. When you need to descend, how to fly a full procedure turn to a VOR approach to 500 ovc and 1 mile vis at night with rocks all around you, etc. Im sure these guys had some experience under their belt, they just made a mistake that very well couldve snowballed.

And as far as the radio comms go.....you cant tell me you never shortened your callsign, abbreviated a clearance. It sounded like those guys got really busy really fast. I know youve been there.
 
casey said:
You've never flown outside our borders, have you?

Talk to a montreal center controller in french, get ATC service in french.
Talk to a monterey center controller in spanish, get ATC service in spanish.

Talk to either in english, get ATC service in english. If you want the added Situational Awareness of hearing what other planes are doing, its a small vocabulary to learn. Just learn the words for "heading", "climb", "descent" and your numbers. Not hard.

And as Peanuckle said, outside the US use ICAO phraseology, which means saying all your call numbers individually. Its "tree tree two one", not "thirty-three twenty-one".
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I have flown outside of the our borders. Trust me i know the feeling of foreign flying and it drives me nuts when in other countries controllers are speaking their native tongue. I am bilingual myself-BTW. My point is that English is suppose to be the language of Aviation, but the rest of the world does not seem to abide by the rules. Sorry i hijacked the thread- you can go back to bashing the poor Regional pilots at the end of their 17th hour now:)
 
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