UPS / IPA booted off NTSB investigation of UPS 1354

[A Life Aloft]

This is what got UPS booted:

http://www.aircargoworld.com/Air-Ca...ll-end-exemption-fatigue-prevention-rule/6702

Submitted by Mike Mangeot, U... on Thu, 08/14/2014 - 18:29 Flight 1354 was a tragedy, and UPS continues to mourn the loss of our crewmembers, Capt. Cerea Beal and First Officer Shanda Fanning. We believe the anniversary is a time for reflection about the accident and the lives of our crewmembers. UPS places the highest emphasis on safety. We have spent the past year working with the NTSB to determine what caused the accident and how to avoid such an accident in the future. It is unfortunate that the leadership of our pilots’ union has chosen to play politics with the memory of our co-workers. Doubly unfortunate is that IPA leadership is distorting the facts of the accident investigation to advance its agenda on crew scheduling. The facts of the situation are clear: • NTSB factual reports showed that the pilots’ schedules, as flown, would have complied with new FAA crew rest regulations for passenger carriers, even if they had been in effect and applicable. • As noted by the NTSB, both crewmembers were coming off extended rest periods. The captain had been off for 10 days. And the first officer had only flown two of the previous 10 days. Despite union rhetoric, the facts of Flight 1354 do not support changing rest rules for cargo crewmembers. A cargo pilot is not a passenger pilot. Just because all pilots sit in cockpits does not mean they experience the same conditions. The highest level of safety is best achieved by the rules that are in place today, because cargo carriers and passenger carriers operate vastly different networks. Cargo pilots fly far fewer hours, about half, of what passenger pilots fly; they operate far fewer takeoffs and landings; and their schedules allow for more rest. The FAA has recognized the differences between cargo flying and passenger flying in having unique sets of regulations for each type of carrier. The memory of our pilots is best served by sticking to the facts and using those facts to advance aviation safety for the entire industry. - See more at: http://www.aircargoworld.com/Air-Ca...gue-prevention-rule/6702#sthash.WZ6sKZKu.dpuf

That was what I found/cited up in post #6 and after I read it just a few minutes ago, I thought, man what horse hockey. Butt covering anyone?

"A cargo pilot is not a passenger pilot. Just because all pilots sit in cockpits does not mean they experience the same conditions." Good grief.

 

[A Life Aloft]

I know this was posted before, but some may have forgotten or missed it:

"Before boarding the last flight of his life, UPS cargo pilot Capt. Cerea Beal Jr. confided to a colleague: "These schedules over the past several years are killing me."
Just before takeoff, his co-pilot also expressed concern about fatigue.

In a conversation captured by the cockpit voice recorder, First Officer Shanda Fanning told Beal that she had just gotten a "good sleep," but she was still "so tired."

As the plane cruised toward Birmingham, Beal noted the two-person crew would have two extra hours off-the-clock on the ground, and pointed out their rest period during a previous leg was cut short by a 30-minute ride to the hotel.

"This is where, ah, the passenger side (passenger airline pilots) ... they're gonna make out," he said.

"I mean I don't get that. You know, it should be one level of safety for everybody," he said.

Fanning agreed.

"It should be across the board to be honest. In my opinion, whether you are flying passengers or cargo or, you know, box of chocolates at night, if you're flying this time of day..." she said.

"The, you know, fatigue is definitely," she added, her voice becoming unintelligible.

"I was out and slept today. I slept in Rockford. I slept good," she said. "And I was out in that sleep room and when my alarm went off, I mean, I'm thinkin' 'I'm so tired,'" she said.

"I know," Beal responded, saying cargo companies "got a lot of nerve."

Rest of the story: http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/20/us/alabama-ups-crash/

 

[derg]

That was what I found/cited up in post #6 and after I read it just a few minutes ago, I thought, man what horse hockey. Butt covering anyone?

"A cargo pilot is not a passenger pilot. Just because all pilots sit in cockpits does not mean they experience the same conditions." Good grief.

You know, giving all those cockpit tours to probably one or two indifferent kids that the parents push up in the cockpit is tiring.

 

[A Life Aloft]

You know, giving all those cockpit tours to probably one or two indifferent kids that the parents push up in the cockpit is tiring.

That and waiting for an FA to bring you your meal and coffee. Really taxing on a soul.

 

[derg]

That and waiting for an FA to bring you your meal and coffee. Really taxing on a soul.

Exactly.

I'm not a fan of all the parts of FAR 117, but the idea that the good parts don't apply to freight guys is FLIPPING RIDICULOUS and the powers-that-be have blood on their hands for doing it.

 

[Dugie8]

"A cargo pilot is not a passenger pilot. Just because all pilots sit in cockpits does not mean they experience the same conditions."


Dafuq I just read.


This is how you get thrown out of a 33rd floor window....

 

[Murdoughnut]

Yeah, that was a big mistake they made there. In that case it was trying to use social media for real-time updates, versus stating causal findings it seemed. However to me, either thing is a bad idea. It serves no useful purpose and can go bad quick. At best, you break even. Normally, you lose. So there's nothing to gain from a public information perspective by doing that kind of stuff.

Well one of the unique components of that crash is that the story broke on social media before the trucks had even gotten there. It's been a very interesting case study as it relates to airport communications management.

 

[RDoug]

NTSB have been doing this crap for years — overtly (and even covertly at times) leaking pure speculation to the press in the midst of an ongoing investigation, then removing interested parties off the case if they dare refute the almighty NTSB spokesperson(s). NATCA got removed from one such investigation a few years back because they weren't about to let stand some of the misleading stuff NTSB were spreading against a controller go unchallenged. I can't remember the specific case, but I seem to recall it may have been the AAL587 Queens crash wherein the NTSB were publicly exoriating the local controller for launching behind a heavy inside the wake turbulence delay time (turned out that the controller had the required radar mileage, and thus didn't need to use the time rule).

 

[ChasenSFO]

Well one of the unique components of that crash is that the story broke on social media before the trucks had even gotten there. It's been a very interesting case study as it relates to airport communications management.

It was a very visible accident, thousands and thousands of people can see SFO from their homes here, including my family. My sister called me and woke me up less than a minute after it happened, she saw it crash from the living room. Obviously she didn't know the type of plane or airline, just said it was "big". Within 2 minutes of refreshing google, I found tweets and other info saying it was an Asiana 777. Really amazing to find out that quickly, well before "legit"(I use that loosely these days) media sources reported on it.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

You know, giving all those cockpit tours to probably one or two indifferent kids that the parents push up in the cockpit is tiring.

Sometimes, though, they're not indifferent.

Which makes my day a LOT better.

 

[PositionAndHold]

This could've been soooooo much worse. If they had taken out five or six homes and the families sleeping peacefully in them, UPS would be screaming "one level of safety" and blaming the FAA as fast as they could. UPS should be looking at this as another lucky break and maybe work to change the rules. They got lucky in Dubai and agin here. The third time it might cost them way more then the pennies they're saving by supporting this ridiculous cargo cut-out.

 

[derg]

It was a very visible accident, thousands and thousands of people can see SFO from their homes here, including my family. My sister called me and woke me up less than a minute after it happened, she saw it crash from the living room. Obviously she didn't know the type of plane or airline, just said it was "big". Within 2 minutes of refreshing google, I found tweets and other info saying it was an Asiana 777. Really amazing to find out that quickly, well before "legit"(I use that loosely these days) media sources reported on it.

Not many beat reporters like the old days.

Basically the local news just reads the newswires and takes meetings with PR agents.

 

[derg]

"A cargo pilot is not a passenger pilot. Just because all pilots sit in cockpits does not mean they experience the same conditions."


Dafuq I just read.


This is how you get thrown out of a 33rd floor window....

KILL IT WITH FIRE.

 

[Soul Brotha']

The few UPS/FedEx guys I've come across look way older then they seem to be. One FedEx guy on the jumpseat years ago told me when I said I would love to work at FedEx, "Man, get ready to age 10 years real quick if you come here."

 

[derg]

Sadly, America wants their Amazon Prime delivered cheap, at any ultimate cost. FDX and UPS need only say, "It's going to raise your shipping costs by X%" and the Low Information "Facebook Rebellion" will begin.

 

[trafficinsight]

https://www.ntsb.gov/news/2009/090817a.html

NATCA got thrown off of the hudson river midair in 2009

The rule is if you're a party to the investigation you don't talk about the investigation without the NTSB's approval.

 

[DE727UPS]

There was a major shakeup at UPS over the Amazon meltdown last Xmas. New CEO, new plan, more infrastructure, increased synergy, and all that. I think UPS's cost cutting to be the darling of wall street finally hit bottom. Hopefully customer service will take a front seat from now on vs the stock dividend.

I know Derg is not a fan of 117 but I think it's more of a player with the dark side of aviation. UPS says 1354 was compliant with 117 so there is no issue. They leave out that the pairing being flown, if flown to completion (the rest of the weeks schedule), would NOT be compliant with 117. In other words, the pairing they were flying would have had to be modified if UPS operated under 117.

 

[derg]

I'm a fan of some parts, and other parts are just murky and doofus, but ultimately I agree with your statement.