Union Involvement during Probation
- Thread starter Champcar
- Start date
Minnesota_Flyer
New Member
Re: Union Involvement during Prohbation
Generally, the probationary employee is covered by all aspects of the bargaining agreement except the just cause provisions. Meaning that the company can fire you for any reason during probation, but they still have to pay you contract rates. The union should offer protection if the employer is violating terms of the agreement.
Whether a probie can participate in union stuff depends on the union. Often, a probationary employee has limited right to participate in union governance. Also, given the fact that the employer can fire a probationary employee for basically any reason (as long as it isn't an illegal reason), it may be wise to lay a little low until one has passed probation.
Generally, the probationary employee is covered by all aspects of the bargaining agreement except the just cause provisions. Meaning that the company can fire you for any reason during probation, but they still have to pay you contract rates. The union should offer protection if the employer is violating terms of the agreement.
Whether a probie can participate in union stuff depends on the union. Often, a probationary employee has limited right to participate in union governance. Also, given the fact that the employer can fire a probationary employee for basically any reason (as long as it isn't an illegal reason), it may be wise to lay a little low until one has passed probation.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
Re: Union Involvement during Prohbation
The Company must follow the union contract even for the probationary pilot. Also, if something were to happen the union still represents the pilot in meetings BUT it doesn't have much teeth.
Although, there is an example here where the Company asked a probationary FO to fly an aircraft with a prop overspeed and the FO refused (it was a big deal in that a/c). It explicitly says in the FOM that pilots are not test pilots. That pilot was fired while on probation, but the union did get him his job back, with pay.
So in short, if a probationary pilot does something stupid they can/will be fired right away with no recourse, but if it's a legit issue the union is there for you.
edit - looks like MF beat me
The Company must follow the union contract even for the probationary pilot. Also, if something were to happen the union still represents the pilot in meetings BUT it doesn't have much teeth.
Although, there is an example here where the Company asked a probationary FO to fly an aircraft with a prop overspeed and the FO refused (it was a big deal in that a/c). It explicitly says in the FOM that pilots are not test pilots. That pilot was fired while on probation, but the union did get him his job back, with pay.
So in short, if a probationary pilot does something stupid they can/will be fired right away with no recourse, but if it's a legit issue the union is there for you.
edit - looks like MF beat me
Minnesota_Flyer
New Member
Re: Union Involvement during Prohbation
I would be interested to see what the guys who have been around for awhile have to say about that from a practical perspective. But given the fact that a probationary employee has limited recourse if the company decides to fire them, I would think it would be good to avoid antagonizing the employer until just cause kicks in. But it would depend somewhat on the employer.
I would be interested to see what the guys who have been around for awhile have to say about that from a practical perspective. But given the fact that a probationary employee has limited recourse if the company decides to fire them, I would think it would be good to avoid antagonizing the employer until just cause kicks in. But it would depend somewhat on the employer.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
Re: Union Involvement during Prohbation
I started helping out the union after 6 months, I don't think the company really cares to be honest with you. You can't hold an elected position until you are off probation however.
edit - jesus dude do you hit hold down F5?
I started helping out the union after 6 months, I don't think the company really cares to be honest with you. You can't hold an elected position until you are off probation however.
edit - jesus dude do you hit hold down F5?
Champcar
Well-Known Member
Re: Union Involvement during Prohbation
Here is the reason I ask. I am not anti union as some might think, I just have some things that I don't get.
Everyone at my school lately seems to want to say screw it and goto Mesa and deal with it. And I have been trying to tell some of the to look into them deeper.
I can not believe the stuff that I read going on over there. What I don't understand is how the same ALPA is at ExpressJet that is at Mesa? How can one be so much better then the other.
So I got to thinking maybe it because Mesa has such a high turn around rate that new pilots are never there for more than a year to make a difference or to try and make a change.
I just don't see why ALPA and its pilots at Mesa don't just say enough of this crap....I know its not that easy but it doesn't seem like anyone is remotely trying.
Here is the reason I ask. I am not anti union as some might think, I just have some things that I don't get.
Everyone at my school lately seems to want to say screw it and goto Mesa and deal with it. And I have been trying to tell some of the to look into them deeper.
I can not believe the stuff that I read going on over there. What I don't understand is how the same ALPA is at ExpressJet that is at Mesa? How can one be so much better then the other.
So I got to thinking maybe it because Mesa has such a high turn around rate that new pilots are never there for more than a year to make a difference or to try and make a change.
I just don't see why ALPA and its pilots at Mesa don't just say enough of this crap....I know its not that easy but it doesn't seem like anyone is remotely trying.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
Re: Union Involvement during Prohbation
If I remember correctly Mesa's union leadership was recently replaced. Stop over at www.mesahub.com, those guys are fired up over there (with the exception of CFIse).
You have to understand, like in any large corporation, a small change takes forever to take place because of all the i's that need to be dotted and t's that need to be crossed. It took over a year to get the new union web site here approved and made "live", and that's a pretty simple task.
If I remember correctly Mesa's union leadership was recently replaced. Stop over at www.mesahub.com, those guys are fired up over there (with the exception of CFIse).
You have to understand, like in any large corporation, a small change takes forever to take place because of all the i's that need to be dotted and t's that need to be crossed. It took over a year to get the new union web site here approved and made "live", and that's a pretty simple task.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
Re: Union Involvement during Prohbation
Champ, the reason Mesa pilots are having a tough time compared to others is that each ALPA Carrier is independent mostly of ALPA national.
ALPA national provides the resources to the local carriers to govern themself with and have a collective bargaining voice. It is up to the local councils to bargain for themselves.
Regardless, if you get into this career, make sure you educate yourself on why a union is important.
On a side note remember you are ALWAYS on probation at a nonunion carrier.
Champ, the reason Mesa pilots are having a tough time compared to others is that each ALPA Carrier is independent mostly of ALPA national.
ALPA national provides the resources to the local carriers to govern themself with and have a collective bargaining voice. It is up to the local councils to bargain for themselves.
Regardless, if you get into this career, make sure you educate yourself on why a union is important.
On a side note remember you are ALWAYS on probation at a nonunion carrier.
Champcar
Well-Known Member
Re: Union Involvement during Prohbation
I understand things take forever. This whole downhill slide started a long time ago.
Hey you where finally first. I've been reading that site alot...what a bunch. Its amazing what they get put through.
I understand things take forever. This whole downhill slide started a long time ago.
Champcar
Well-Known Member
Re: Union Involvement during Prohbation
So will national ALPA ever step in to protect its reputation if a carrier ALPA is not stepping up to the plate enough?
Seggy
Well-Known Member
Re: Union Involvement during Prohbation
Oh in the end the reason WHY MESA has such crummy work rules is that when they were bargaining their contract JO decided he wanted to start a whip saw carrier, aka Freedom Air to undercut his own pilot group.
The local council at MESA said heck no and gave up work rules to save flying under their council and contract. MESA has some of the best scope clause out of any contract out there.
Oh in the end the reason WHY MESA has such crummy work rules is that when they were bargaining their contract JO decided he wanted to start a whip saw carrier, aka Freedom Air to undercut his own pilot group.
The local council at MESA said heck no and gave up work rules to save flying under their council and contract. MESA has some of the best scope clause out of any contract out there.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
Re: Union Involvement during Prohbation
Yes they have and do. They provide the best resources out there for pilot groups to bargain with.
The other way they will step up to the plate is they will refuse to sign off on a substandard contract. Take for example a local union is going to be forced to sign a contract and agree to the terms under distress by management. ALPA national will not sign off on that contract.
Yes they have and do. They provide the best resources out there for pilot groups to bargain with.
The other way they will step up to the plate is they will refuse to sign off on a substandard contract. Take for example a local union is going to be forced to sign a contract and agree to the terms under distress by management. ALPA national will not sign off on that contract.
Minnesota_Flyer
New Member
Re: Union Involvement during Prohbation
BWAHAHAHA!!!
I started helping out the union after 6 months, I don't think the company really cares to be honest with you. You can't hold an elected position until you are off probation however.
edit - jesus dude do you hit hold down F5?
BWAHAHAHA!!!
Velocipede
New Member
Re: Union Involvement during Prohbation
At most places you've got to make a choice. If you want to be an Instructor or get into the management side of the Flight Department, its probably not wise to get yourself identified as a vociferous unionist.
At most places you've got to make a choice. If you want to be an Instructor or get into the management side of the Flight Department, its probably not wise to get yourself identified as a vociferous unionist.
H46Bubba
Well-Known Member
Re: Union Involvement during Prohbation
Umm, Expressjet and other regionals don't have JO as their CEO! Man the union is going tho have a 88 degree inclined up hill battle starting in September. JO is a force to be reconed with. He will do anything and step on anyone in order to make the management and the stockholders a buck. He's making a crap load from the Chinese on this Shenzen deal. He's providing the aircraft, the pilots, and advisory services. He still cares about operaations here in the states. United is Mesa's biggest contract. If he losses United again he's definitely going to be doing a tap dance to the stockholders.
Umm, Expressjet and other regionals don't have JO as their CEO! Man the union is going tho have a 88 degree inclined up hill battle starting in September. JO is a force to be reconed with. He will do anything and step on anyone in order to make the management and the stockholders a buck. He's making a crap load from the Chinese on this Shenzen deal. He's providing the aircraft, the pilots, and advisory services. He still cares about operaations here in the states. United is Mesa's biggest contract. If he losses United again he's definitely going to be doing a tap dance to the stockholders.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
Re: Union Involvement during Prohbation
Our current Chief Pilot was the BIGGEST pro union guy on the company seniority list before he went to the dark side. He wasn't even allowed to talk to the company any more because he would get so angry at them.
Our current Chief Pilot was the BIGGEST pro union guy on the company seniority list before he went to the dark side. He wasn't even allowed to talk to the company any more because he would get so angry at them.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Re: Union Involvement during Prohbation
Heck you guys think Mesa has problems getting things changed there with ALPA on property?
Look at ASA, over 4 years . . . with ALPA. . .and no contract.
Think it'll get better before it gets worse? (rhetorical).
Heck you guys think Mesa has problems getting things changed there with ALPA on property?
Look at ASA, over 4 years . . . with ALPA. . .and no contract.
Think it'll get better before it gets worse? (rhetorical).