Unexpected Experience

PhotoPilot

New Member
Last weekend, I was one of the CFI's at the local WINGS weekend. For those of you who are unfamiliar, it's an event sponsored by our local FSDO to promote safety and recurrent training for GA pilots. They do safety seminars and provide free instruction for participants who bring their own planes.

I was paired up with a very cool guy who owns a Warrior. We flew for three hours and spent about an hour each on upper air work, patterns and landings, and hood work. It was my first real experience flying with a GA pilot who wasn't a product of my school. Though he was safe, I was shocked by how little precision there was in his flying. When he began to drift from his altitude, he would typically catch the error after about 100 feet . . . but wouldn't do anything to fix it. His patterns were much more oval than rectangular and there was no effort to correct for wind drift. His preplanning and resource management were sufficient but not as thorough as they could have been. When I pulled the power for an emergency from altitude, he made the field he was after, but certainly lacked the planning and processing that we're trained to utilize.

As I said a moment ago, he was safe. I had no qualms about signing off on his WINGS program ticket. However, I went home thinking about attitudes within the GA population as a whole. I don't think that pilots should be robotic and follow an X-Y-Z formula is every situation. On the other hand, I also think that consistency in flying and the desire to correct those 100-foot altitude deviations and oval patterns would greatly contribute to an increase in overall awareness and safety of flight.

I'm interested in everyone else's take on the topic. How much precision is a resonable amount to expect from GA pilots? From commercial pilots and CFIs? What are the areas in which you strive for precision and what areas do you let slide?

Just the musings for a newly minted CFI. Probably old hat for a lot of you . . .
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It's always "interesting" when you go up and give someone a BFR or do a wings proficiency flight. I've done about half a dozen of those types of flights so far, each one very different.

The older pilots can be particularly difficult, especially in situations at a controlled airport. For some reason their reaction time is not very good, and they miss at least 25% of their ATC calls. I tried to do a BFR the other day with an older guy who would NOT readback any clearances, no matter how many times I told him to do it.

So we're coming in for an ILS, and on downwind I'm talking about how you always need to repeat everything the controller said to you after you get a clearance. About a minute later we are told "cessna six three alpha mike, fly heading 140, maintain two thousand five hundred till established, cleared ILS runway one seven left".

Guess what his response was?

"Alpha Mike"

So I key the mic to finish reading back everything, then give him another lecture about how that was a clearance, and we are required to read back the clearances to the controller. So we start the approach, and get changed to tower. Tower clears us to land.

Guess what his response was?

"Alpha Mike"

GEEEEEZE. Sometimes I wonder if these people hear what I'm saying at all or just nod their heads?????
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His patterns were much more oval than rectangular and there was no effort to correct for wind drift.

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What's wrong with oval patterns? I don't fly a base leg per se, in the VFR pattern on inside downwind, I fly a downwind to final turn during a closed pattern. On outside downwind, I'll (obviously) fly a rectangular pattern. On an overhead maneuver, you always perform oval patterns.
 
Alchemy don't get too bent out of shape about that - most of your seasoned pilots will not read back full ILS clearances.

There are some good reasons for NOT reading back the full clearance, such as distraction and frequency congestion, but I bet this guy just didn't like talking on the radio.

I usually respond with "Cleared ILS (whatever runway)" and that is accepted as sufficient. Remember, the readback guidelines are in the AIM and therefore not regulatory.

The trick is discerning if it's a good pilot who's clearing the frequency, or if it's an "old timer" scared of the radio. THAT'S when you start earning the big bucks
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The older pilots can be particularly difficult, especially in situations at a controlled airport. For some reason their reaction time is not very good, and they miss at least 25% of their ATC calls. I tried to do a BFR the other day with an older guy who would NOT readback any clearances, no matter how many times I told him to do it.

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First of all I'm considered "an older guy" at 41, amoung my co-workers who are 30 or younger. I'm on the tower frequency about 3-5 hours a day and I hear pilots young and old making ambiguous radio calls, inaccurate position reports or incomplete readbacks. Age is not a factor in my opinion, training and currency are.
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Thanks for posting that, PhotoPilot...

I'll actually be doing that on the 22nd of May, and I'm very curious to see what I get!!

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It was my first real experience flying with a GA pilot who wasn't a product of my school. Though he was safe, I was shocked by how little precision there was in his flying.


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Once alot of people get out of the training pipeline, they lose alot of thgat precision - especially if they don't fly for a living. That's exactly what the Pilot Proficiency Program is all about! To encourage pilots to get in the airplane with a flight instructor and talk about/practice some of these things.

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His preplanning and resource management were sufficient but not as thorough as they could have been. When I pulled the power for an emergency from altitude, he made the field he was after, but certainly lacked the planning and processing that we're trained to utilize.


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That might be a tough one to judge. As a new CFI (that's what I am too, so I'm going through the same thing), you're probably used to being in "Training & Checkride" mode, verbalizing everything that you do and over-doing most things. I did more flight planning and weather checking for my CFI-I ride than I usually do on an IFR flight across two states!!! Is it possible (just throwing it out there...) that this guy was familiar with the airport and the area, and th only preflight planning he needed was the METAR? Could he have checked WX, W&B and all the other trash beforehand?

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I had no qualms about signing off on his WINGS program ticket.


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Not sure if we have the authority to not endorse someone as having recieved the training...although it counts as a BFR, they don't have to meet any particular standard...

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. . .I also think that consistency in flying and the desire to correct those 100-foot altitude deviations . . .

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If a Private Pilot Applicant can walk away from a checkride with deviations of 100 feet, why shouldn't a 60 year old private pilot be allowed to fly with them??

In a situation like that, I think that the PTS is a pretty good guideline for someone. Since you're trying to insure their safety, that might be a good place to start: Make sure that they still meet that minimum standard. If they don't, work on that. If they do, go on to fry bigger fish!!

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How much precision is a resonable amount to expect from GA pilots?
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Within the standards of the PTS....I do believe in standards and boundaries. I even practice them myself. We all do...how many of us wait until the 14th of April to file our taxes??

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From commercial pilots and CFIs? What are the areas in which you strive for precision and what areas do you let slide?


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I don't think that anything is perfect, and I think that it's all situationally dependant. If I'm flying at 0230 from Atlanta to Nashville at 10,000 and 15 minutes after takeoff I'm given direct Nashville, I'm not going to sweat 15 degrees off on my altitude because I was fiddling with a CD. That being said, I am going to correct the situation as soon as is practical. IF you're flying in turbulent IMC, it's going to be impossible to maintain a perfect altitude, so you do the best that you can!!

Things that I pay particular attention to? IMC. MDA/DH. ATC Clearances. Hold Short Instructions. Situational Awareness. Weather.

These are the things that cause accidents - not taxiing perfectly on the centerline of the taxyway (although this can sometimes be indicative of sloppiness.


I'm eager to hear what everyone else thinks!!
 
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Not sure if we have the authority to not endorse someone as having recieved the training...although it counts as a BFR, they don't have to meet any particular standard...

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What?! You most certainly do. Never sign anyone off for anything if you're uncomfortable about it.

For example: You do the required hour of takeoffs and landings with Mr. Recreational Pilot, and when you're done, you need a chiropractor. Buuut, you sign him off for that phase anyways because, sure enough, he received the training. Well, next weekend, Mr. Rec Pilot becomes a smoking hole on landing. Take a wild guess who the FAA is going to come visit. And they're going to want to know why you thought it was OK to sign him off for the landings phase of the Wings program. The whole point of it is proficiency; not just an hour of training regardless of progress.
 
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Not sure if we have the authority to not endorse someone as having recieved the training...although it counts as a BFR, they don't have to meet any particular standard...

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What?! You most certainly do. Never sign anyone off for anything if you're uncomfortable about it.

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Ahh...but therein lies the rub. You're not "signing anything off", are you? I want to learn!!!!
 
After an 'interesting' visit to OKC back in the 1990's, do not and I repeat DO NOT sign off any student/BFR/whatever you're not 100% confident with.
 
Well, in order for them to get credit for a BFR, you have to sign off each of the three parts (t/o's and ldgs, hood work, and maneuvers), and then sign the bottom of the sheet at the end. Then they mail it in, and get a logbook sticker from the FAA in a few weeks.

I've never participated in one of these weekend programs, I'm just talking about pilots whom I've done the Wings program with individually. Maybe thats different?
 
MikeD - My issue was that his oval pattern was very tight and his turn to final was close to the threshold and low. He wasn't giving himself enough time to stabilize before the landing flare. I got him to square off the pattern and fly a half-mile final from about 500 feet AGL. As soon as he did, his landings improved immediately. However, I talked to the guy who gave him his last BFR and he said the exact same scenario had played out two years ago. For some reason, he just doesn't give himself the time to stabilize on final.
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MTSU - It was a great experience and I'm more than happy to have shared it!
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I agree that, after having just finished an intense, high quality program to the CFI level, my standards and expectations may be too high. I'm trying very hard to remember what it was like when I was a 35 hour private pilot so that I'm not too demanding with my new students. On the other hand, I would like to see people thinking through things and searching for the little things that will make them safer and more competent. I have no issues with someone losing or gaining 100 feet . . . but when they stop the trend at 3400 feet then drop to 3300 feet and stabilize, then bump up to 3600 feet, all without intent or a concious effort to correct to their target altitude, I start to wonder just how much deviation they're willing to accept.

As for my answers to the questions I posed above, I agree that IFR (especially when in actual conditions) requires a great deal of precise effort. Obviously MDAs, MEAs, clearances, routings, etc. are very specific and need to be abided by. But I also strive for concise communications, weather awareness, see-and-avoid efforts, and preplanning and resource management (especially during takeoff, landing, or times when I'm close to the ground or in high density traffic areas). There are many, many areas that demand safety conciousness and diligence in aviation, but some seem to provide an exceptional return for a little bit of extra effort.

Finally, I'm with Ed. You're never required to sign off on a BFR or WINGS training. If you're not satisfied that a pilot is safe and proficient, don't put your sign off on them. Log it as dual and tell them to get more training.

Good luck to all of the other new CFIs out there. We're all in for an interesting, fantastic ride! (I hope . . .
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After an 'interesting' visit to OKC back in the 1990's, do not and I repeat DO NOT sign off any student/BFR/whatever you're not 100% confident with.

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Agreed 100%. However, this isn't a flight review. Paragraph 7 of AC 61-91H states that it's training. You can't not endorse someone's logbook after you've given them training, even if they suck as a pilot!!

Can you?
 
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Agreed 100%. However, this isn't a flight review. Paragraph 7 of AC 61-91H states that it's training. You can't not endorse someone's logbook after you've given them training, even if they suck as a pilot!!

Can you?

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You can sign their logbook for the training, just don't sign the slip of paper that they send to the FAA until they can do whatever objective proficiently.
 
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Agreed 100%. However, this isn't a flight review. Paragraph 7 of AC 61-91H states that it's training. You can't not endorse someone's logbook after you've given them training, even if they suck as a pilot!!

Can you?

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You can sign their logbook for the training, just don't sign the slip of paper that they send to the FAA until they can do whatever objective proficiently.

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I got you.....I can understand that...
 
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MikeD - My issue was that his oval pattern was very tight and his turn to final was close to the threshold and low. He wasn't giving himself enough time to stabilize before the landing flare. I got him to square off the pattern and fly a half-mile final from about 500 feet AGL. As soon as he did, his landings improved immediately. However, I talked to the guy who gave him his last BFR and he said the exact same scenario had played out two years ago. For some reason, he just doesn't give himself the time to stabilize on final.
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Rog on that. An unstable approach is a whole different animal, and agree with you on needing work there.

MTSU, you'd fry me. I never land on centerline. In formations, never taxi on centerline (except for night) either.
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MTSU, you'd fry me. I never land on centerline. In formations, never taxi on centerline (except for night) either.
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Making all of that noise in those planes over our homes....
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MTSU, you'd fry me. I never land on centerline. In formations, never taxi on centerline (except for night) either.
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Making all of that noise in those planes over our homes....
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LOL, and not taxiing on centerline. What the hell is the matter with them hotshots?
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Damn studs can't get anything right.......
 
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