UAL/CAL Seniority Award

Glad it is out and done finally. Hearing mixed reactions, but it seems most are fairly content and ready to move on with it. I think most realize that even if they slid down some, they are going to still move right back up with the retirements. I hope for their sake and everyone trying to get on there, that the ISL doesn't tear them apart and UAL can move ahead.
 
Glad to see the arbitrator's and or ALPA learned from the disaster that was the USAirways/America West ISL.

I have many friends on the junior side at UAL. Glad to see they did not suffer the same fate as the junior pilots at USAirways.

Sadly aviation and airline history is littered with corpses from past mistakes. It takes those mistakes for the industry to learn.



TP
 
Seems somewhat fair in comparison to other SLI's, but I hate pilots sometimes. It should just be 1 v 1 by DOH, if a United and Con guy have the same DOH, then United guy/girl is senior. Only fair way to do it. When we finally got our SLI and incorporated MDW into our list at RAH they credited 717 CA's with a '92 DOH to early '06 and '00 DOH were stuffed below the '08 hires.

Stupid.
 
HVYMETALDRVR said:
Seems somewhat fair in comparison to other SLI's, but I hate pilots sometimes. It should just be 1 v 1 by DOH, if a United and Con guy have the same DOH, then United guy/girl is senior. Only fair way to do it. When we finally got our SLI and incorporated MDW into our list at RAH they credited 717 CA's with a '92 DOH to early '06 and '00 DOH were stuffed below the '08 hires.

Stupid.
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So what about an airline that is newer? Like if JetBlue merged with AA? Should the number 1 guy at JetBlue be forced to nearly the bottom?

I wish it were as simple as straight DOH.
 
Had a thread similar to this on the DALPA forums and the powers-that-be "dispatched" it with catlike quickness.

Just like my mention of "The Vault Agreement". HMmMMMMMMMMMmMmMMmmm!
 
HVYMETALDRVR said:
Seems somewhat fair in comparison to other SLI's, but I hate pilots sometimes. It should just be 1 v 1 by DOH, if a United and Con guy have the same DOH, then United guy/girl is senior. Only fair way to do it. When we finally got our SLI and incorporated MDW into our list at RAH they credited 717 CA's with a '92 DOH to early '06 and '00 DOH were stuffed below the '08 hires.

Stupid.
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Why is that more fair than CAL above UAL guy same DOH? Do we credit the pilots with the surviving carrier name more? Or the surviving certificate? Or the surviving management team?
 
Sat next to a guy who will retire in the low 20's (originally UAL) and he is quitting to go over to the MidEast. Says the mood is "toxic" over there.
 
wheelsup said:
Sat next to a guy who will retire in the low 20's (originally UAL) and he is quitting to go over to the MidEast. Says the mood is "toxic" over there.
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I've actually been concerned about that, but from my "non-scientific" polling during my commutes and occasional jumpseaters, it actually isn't that bad. Most are ready to move on, and no one wants to import the toxic virus that plagued US Airways for years.

Derg said:
Had a thread similar to this on the DALPA forums and the powers-that-be "dispatched" it with catlike quickness.

Just like my mention of "The Vault Agreement". HMmMMMMMMMMMmMmMMmmm!
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The MAN is maintaining the peace and uprooting any potential weeds in the grapevine by any means necessary! lol
 
ATN_Pilot said:
The seniority integration award is out. Basically a modified version of the UAL committee's proposal:

  • 65% weighted on category & status, 35% weighted on longevity
  • 787, 747, and A350 aircraft fenced
  • Some other minor conditions & restrictions
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I'm curious. What was CAL's proposal exactly?
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
So what about an airline that is newer? Like if JetBlue merged with AA? Should the number 1 guy at JetBlue be forced to nearly the bottom?

I wish it were as simple as straight DOH.
Click to expand...
PhilosopherPilot said:
So what about an airline that is newer? Like if JetBlue merged with AA? Should the number 1 guy at JetBlue be forced to nearly the bottom?

I wish it were as simple as straight DOH.
Click to expand...

Yes. DOH, its not perfect sure, but generally someone with a 1995 or earlier DOH has been in the game than someone with a 2008 DOH. They're probably older, have more kids, more bills and less time to retirement. Airlines are the only industry I know of where you get 20 years in as a senior CA then a merger and you can be stapled to the bottom and go back to being a reserve FO. If the company goes out of business, well then yeah... your probably screwed. But the pilots and they're unions have very little to say in the decision-making process of a merger and its not right to penalize them.

At our company, there's a lot of former MW CA's and FO's that would have been great additions both by personality and experience but instead walked. Furthermore, I've flown with/met a few ex Midwesters that are pissed a life because they're too far in and old to do anything else. This is why this industry screws people so bad and makes for a toxic and dangerous work environment.

"Hey Mr. _______, welcome back and thanks for your 16 years service at MW and now RAH. The Local _____, has been hard at work to get you back to work with our new SLI. Oh by the way you've been involuntarily displaced out of MKE and will be on RSV in LGA! Have a nice day!"
 
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cencal83406 said:
Why is that more fair than CAL above UAL guy same DOH? Do we credit the pilots with the surviving carrier name more? Or the surviving certificate? Or the surviving management team?
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Someone has to be more senior, it could go either way depending upon what is negotiated... I'm just saying its wrong to put 5 people from airline A above each person of Airline B because "we're the controlling partner in the merger blah blah blah" Or just stapling an entire pilot group to the bottom which has happened before also.
 
Derg said:
Had a thread similar to this on the DALPA forums and the powers-that-be "dispatched" it with catlike quickness.

Just like my mention of "The Vault Agreement". HMmMMMMMMMMMmMmMMmmm!
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What happened when you guys merged with NWA? I heard it was 2 Southern-jets guys vs. 1 Northie? Is that true or was it way more complicated than that?
 
HVYMETALDRVR said:
What happened when you guys merged with NWA? I heard it was 2 Southern-jets guys vs. 1 Northie? Is that true or was it way more complicated than that?
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Nah, not even close.

Basically, in a real basic fashion, we got the "Nicolau Award" which was a result of the binding arbitration at USAir.

In our flavor, again in a very basic sense, the system looked at "what you could hold now" and figured out where you would be after the merger.

So I was basically a junior narrowbody captain, relatively senior widebody first officer.

(magic happens)

and then after the merger, I'm pretty much (at the time) where I was.

It's actually fairly complicated, for the most part, everyone is a couple percentage points of where they were before.

IMHO the concepts of "we bought you", "we saved you", "but you're getting a raise", "we're stronger", "we have ultra mega super premium jets", "we have a bigger presence in (whatever)", "We have more robust penises", etc are better left for debriefing at the bar, not seniority list arbitration.

I'm sure @ATN_Pilot can explain much better than I could.
 
Cats on the DALPA forum? Hard to believe. I cant tell you how much better my life is now that I have given up that wasteland. Do it - quit cold turkey!

Derg said:
Had a thread similar to this on the DALPA forums and the powers-that-be "dispatched" it with catlike quickness.

Just like my mention of "The Vault Agreement". HMmMMMMMMMMMmMmMMmmm!
Click to expand...
 
wheelsup said:
Sat next to a guy who will retire in the low 20's (originally UAL) and he is quitting to go over to the MidEast. Says the mood is "toxic" over there.
Click to expand...
I think a lot of that will go away once the old retires and the fresh blood comes in
 
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