TSA B.S.

M

mshunter

Well-Known Member
O.K. I have a student who has a german PPL (JAA) who wants to convert, and I am having a hard time getting an answer from the TSA on this one. So I come to the place to ask questions that usually get it quickly. Does this guy need to get a TSA approval for his training. He is already flying on a US license in liue of his JAA. MAN I HATE THE TSA!

TSA approval for someone that already has an FAA certificate (the plastic one, not a temp.)? He is in the US on a green card.
 
http://www.aopa.org/tsa_rule/#aliens

I am pursuing a U.S. pilot certificate based on my foreign license. Am I required to comply with the TSA rule?
No, TSA has clarified that getting a U.S. certificate based on a foreign license does not apply to the requirements of the rule.
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I think this is what you were talking about, but I don't know for sure.
 
mojo6911 said:
He said he already has the FAA certificate, which means he has converted it already.
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Semi correct. His FAA certificate is only valid in luie of his JAA certificate. So he needs flight training in order to get his FAA PPL. (# hours of night, 3 hours in prep w/in 60 days, etc.) Hence the question of the TSA endorsement for flight training in the US as a forieng citizen.
 
mshunter said:
Semi correct. His FAA certificate is only valid in luie of his JAA certificate. So he needs flight training in order to get his FAA PPL. (# hours of night, 3 hours in prep w/in 60 days, etc.) Hence the question of the TSA endorsement for flight training in the US as a forieng citizen.
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When you say in lieu of, that means instead of, which doesn't make sense. If he does the conversion process with the FSDO, he will have an FAA certificate that is validated by his JAA certificate. Any restrictions on the JAA apply to the FAA as well.

If he wants an unrestricted FAA, then yes, he needs the TSA approval, written exam and all the private requirements.

Remember, the TSA and the FAA do not coordinate at our level. He will need TSA approval for Private, Instrument, Multi-Engine or anything else.
 
I have had the TSA out where I instruct. From that field rep any student receiving training must prove citizenship or get approval. Even if they had received approval before but say move to a new flight school to continue training they have to get approval all over again (or show proof of citizenship). Within in the same school but different instrctor does not require new approvals. So in your case I would say yes he needs TSA approval. Since (I am assuming) he is in the system it should not be a big deal to get a quick approval.
 
If he already has a private (based on) and is getting a stand alone, then no TSA needed. TSA is required for three events: Initial Private Pilot certification, instrument and multiengine.
 
I got offical word from the TSA yesterday, and they are telling me he has to submit his information. And now he is telling me he won't. Let the pissing match begin!:banghead: If the TSA tells me he has to submit, then he has to submit. I also found out he has been to two other flight schools, something seems fishy about this whole thing.
 
mojo6911 said:
When you say in lieu of, that means instead of, which doesn't make sense. If he does the conversion process with the FSDO, he will have an FAA certificate that is validated by his JAA certificate. Any restrictions on the JAA apply to the FAA as well.

If he wants an unrestricted FAA, then yes, he needs the TSA approval, written exam and all the private requirements.

Remember, the TSA and the FAA do not coordinate at our level. He will need TSA approval for Private, Instrument, Multi-Engine or anything else.
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This is correct, I have done 3 Mexican to FAA conversions. If he wants the FAA cert with the restriction that it has to be accompanied by his JAA, then it is just paperwork at the FSDO. If he wants an unrestricted FAA license, then he needs TSA clearance, written, and a full checkride.
 
NickH said:
If he already has a private (based on) and is getting a stand alone, then no TSA needed. TSA is required for three events: Initial Private Pilot certification, instrument and multiengine.
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Show me the source on this one, I have done a few and they were all done exactly the OPPOSITE as you said above with guidance from TSA.

If he wants the (restricted) FAA cert based on JAA, no TSA needed because there is no training involved. If he wants stand alone (unrestricted) FAA ( which will be his initial FAA PPL) It is mandatory that he get TSA clearance. If he already has the restricted license based on JAA, he still has to get clearance to train for the unrestricted.
 
NickH said:
If he already has a private (based on) and is getting a stand alone, then no TSA needed. TSA is required for three events: Initial Private Pilot certification, instrument and multiengine.
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wjmiller3 said:
This is correct, I have done 3 Mexican to FAA conversions. If he wants the FAA cert with the restriction that it has to be accompanied by his JAA, then it is just paperwork at the FSDO. If he wants an unrestricted FAA license, then he needs TSA clearance, written, and a full checkride.
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He has the written done already (previous instructor signed him off). But the thing I am stumped about is the initial thing. He already has an FAA plastic certificate based on his JAA. My thoughts is it's not an initial certificate because he has been a pilot for 45 years(JAA), and just wants to fly in the US without restriction. And his JAA will expire in Aug., so he will either have to go back to Germany and renew it (very expensive) or take the checkride here in the US and be done with it. If the TSA is this up in arms about "He needs it, wait, no he doesn't need it" then WTF are we paying our effin' tax dollars to them for. They can't figure a damn thing out! A TOTAL WASTE OF MY HARD EARNED CASH!
 
Source is listed above.

The FAA certificate he has is a private pilot certificate. All you're doing is removing a 'valid only when..' limitation from the certificate he already has. This isn't his initial FAA certificate, but even if it were, he still wouldn't need TSA, as he already has private pilot certification under JAA which was his initial training. For the same reason, a student training for JAA certification in the US as their initial private pilot certification, would require TSA.
 
mshunter said:
He has the written done already (previous instructor signed him off). But the thing I am stumped about is the initial thing. He already has an FAA plastic certificate based on his JAA. My thoughts is it's not an initial certificate because he has been a pilot for 45 years(JAA), and just wants to fly in the US without restriction. And his JAA will expire in Aug., so he will either have to go back to Germany and renew it (very expensive) or take the checkride here in the US and be done with it. If the TSA is this up in arms about "He needs it, wait, no he doesn't need it" then WTF are we paying our effin' tax dollars to them for. They can't figure a damn thing out! A TOTAL WASTE OF MY HARD EARNED CASH!
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That is right, he will either have to go back to Germany and renew, or get TSA clearance to train for the unrestricted FAA license.
 
NickH said:
Source is listed above.

The FAA certificate he has is a private pilot certificate. All you're doing is removing a 'valid only when..' limitation from the certificate he already has. This isn't his initial FAA certificate, but even if it were, he still wouldn't need TSA, as he already has private pilot certification under JAA which was his initial training. For the same reason, a student training for JAA certification in the US as their initial private pilot certification, would require TSA.
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The FAA private he has is a restricted license that required no training (or clearance) in the US to get, all it involved was paper pushing. To remove the restriction, which will require training, he will have to get TSA clearance. Just because he has a JAA doesn't mean squat to the TSA. All that will do for him is allow him to get a restricted FAA license with the "valid only" stamp.

And I guess I dont understand the part in bold. How is someone going to train in the US for JAA certs?
 
wjmiller3 said:
And I guess I dont understand the part in bold. How is someone going to train in the US for JAA certs?
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At any of the dozen or schools like http://www.flyoba.com/ that offer that training.

Far be it for me to criticize, but maybe a little more research is in order? I've no desire to start an argument, but the advice that you are giving is incorrect. Start with the TSA document I listed above, and note that 'FAA' does not appear in it. TSA makes no distinction between FAA certification and certification from any other qualifying ICAO country. Indeed, the document refers to 'basic piloting skills' something common, one hopes, to all certified pilots.

We routinely train students in similar situations and have no problems with our inspections.
 
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