Trouble in Houston

On the Airways/AA side those hired after the Dec. 9th merger are mostly expecting to be slotted in DOH with those hired on either side.

I would guess all of your 4th listers will go in DOH order behind everybody else. There may be some push back though because I think some of (all of?) the Eagle guys hired to AA since the merger date had AA numbers going back a way. That really shouldn't matter as they were never on property, but, as you said, who knows how an arbitrator will look at it.

It's more like management is laughing at you and your generation.

I tend to stop listening when people throw the generation card into a discussion.

Yeah, sure it was uphill in both directions.
 
I would guess all of your 4th listers will go in DOH order behind everybody else. There may be some push back though because I think some of (all of?) the Eagle guys hired to AA since the merger date had AA numbers going back a way. That really shouldn't matter as they were never on property, but, as you said, who knows how an arbitrator will look at it.

Even though the Eagle guys were not on property they were senior to guys on property.
 
Even though the Eagle guys were not on property they were senior to guys on property.

Airways has been down this path before with MidAtlantic and the CEL (and to some extent their arguments against the Nic award). I'd expect it to go to arbitration in the end. The logic behind the Nic may end up protecting the Airways guys to some extent in this case, although I don't know how they will be able to argue on one hand for the Nic (to limit Eagle pilots with AA numbers not on property) while on the other hand argue against it as far as the East-West combined list.
 
Your point exactly is???

I'm not placing blame on the ASA guys at all. I'm tired of seeing all of these attacks and finger pointing and it has to be coming from somewhere? I honestly could care less whether one side or the other is doing things that aren't right. I'm actually a little offended by some of the comments made by ASA people the last few days on the other sites. The regional pilot groups are finally getting more and more leverage the longer we keep this going. Why should we be in a hurry to get something done? Make these crappy managers sweat at take the heat. The bottom line is we don't have a TA that is even close to being acceptable.

It just seems like the past couple of weeks this pilot group has started taking steps backward instead of forward.

My point is you can't say "we need to stand together!" and then turn around and say "but you guys gotta get in line."

You're right. We don't have a TA that is acceptable. Partially because both groups spent so much time dicking around on stuff that doesn't matter...no matter why that happened.
 
It's more like management is laughing at you and your generation. They've been doing it for 15+ years. Ya'll are the ones that bent over. You read what I said, let management take it. It's their own fault for getting us where we are now anyway. Screw em if they can't staff their excuse of an operation because they run at such razor thin profit margins.

Uh huh. Let's see how that attitude and ignorance works out for you. It's already cost you many thousands of dollars. I'm betting it costs you many more.
 
I would guess all of your 4th listers will go in DOH order behind everybody else. There may be some push back though because I think some of (all of?) the Eagle guys hired to AA since the merger date had AA numbers going back a way. That really shouldn't matter as they were never on property, but, as you said, who knows how an arbitrator will look at it.



I tend to stop listening when people throw the generation card into a discussion.

Yeah, sure it was uphill in both directions.
There were two groups of Eagle guys, guys who actually had AA numbers and guys who are like the PSA guys, they are flows. There are no more of the AA #'d guys, apparently the last of them flowed last year. So anyone hired since then is considered a new hire from my understanding. So they would be in the same slot.
 
There were two groups of Eagle guys, guys who actually had AA numbers and guys who are like the PSA guys, they are flows. There are no more of the AA #'d guys, apparently the last of them flowed last year. So anyone hired since then is considered a new hire from my understanding. So they would be in the same slot.

Well there ya go.

Also, PSA guys never were flows and never got numbers. When the CEL list was in place (2002-2006 maybe?) you could select Mainline Only or MidAtlantic and then as spots opened up guys would "flow" up. That of course never happened despite 100+ mainline pilots (and then some MidAtlantic pilots who'd never actually flown on a mainline aircraft) flowing down to PSA. All of the preferential hire guys (in the last 4 years) didn't get numbers until their first day of class and went through a full blown interview to get there. A fair number of guys who interviewed (myself included) didn't actual get the job.
 
Previous theories that attempted to explain the delayed process for acquiring a joint contract for the XJT/ASA pilots largely rested upon disagreements over which scheduling system platform to utilize, but perhaps there was a far more nefarious reason one side felt it was necessary to disagree to nearly so much, so often. And that disagreements regarding scheduling, B fund, vacation adjustments, were all nothing more than a smoke screen hiding the real reasons behind such extensive delay and failure to negotiate in good faith.

I was fortunate enough to receive some information regarding the current landscape that exists between both MECs. Information was shared with me that indicated both groups had retained lawyers for future SLI work. The ASA MEC secured the SLI lawyer that the United MEC utilized during its negotiations with Continental. Additionally, from the same individual, it was stated that the XJT MEC retained the lawyer the Continental MEC used. This is important due to the lawyer's different positions regarding when a seniority list snapshot should occur. One says at date of acquisition and the other says date of contract signing.

The lawyer retained by XJT MEC holds the position that a snapshot of independent seniority lists should be taken at the data of contract signing. This may explain why the XJT MEC has been dragging their feet during this whole process, in the very significant effort to capture the most during an SLI process by way of professing a declaration that the seniority list snapshot occurs at date of signing of a new contract. Consider for a moment the traditional, and widely held view, that for the purposes of an SLI, the seniority lists used have customarily been generated from date of acquisition/merger announcement. This process protects the integrity of an integrated list by not providing a windfall for one side that may benefit due to explosive growth (movement, etc., lord knows there hasn't been any legitimate growth Company wide since 4 Aug 2010).

Considering that certain members of the XJT MEC, and even CNC, were observers during the UAL/CAL SLI process, this seems to be an interesting decision taken by the XJT MEC. Certain members of past and current XJT MEC and CNC committee may have played a direct role in wasting the Company's funds and time by failing to negotiate in good faith over the past four years, in an effort to allow their already bloated seniority list to grow even larger and thus generate a greater windfall for their pilots. It is this belief, widely held by individuals close to negotiations, that may shine a light on the XJT MEC's failure to negotiate honestly. By doing so they attempted to provide an unacceptable springboard for many new and low seniority ExpressJet (XJT) pilots over and above long standing ASA pilots.

Mentioned by name as having direct involvement with this plot against ASA pilots are previous MEC Chairman Chris Grable, JNC Co-Chair John Wood, Scheduling Committee Chairman Steve McKnight, and Agreement Compliance committee member Ron Stevens. It was stressed to me that additional individuals may have played a role in developing this strategy, but that confidence was not high enough to name additional individuals.

One bit of evidence that suggests this play by the XJT MEC is indeed real was their inability to present a proposed seniority list during a meeting with the Company and ASA MEC, in the presence of an arbitrator, last week. Granted, the real work regarding an SLI cannot, and will not, begin until after a joint contract is ratified - but the foundational blocks, when asked by the Company last week, are not even at the job site for one party of this little dance. Seems odd that they couldn't present a list to be used after nearly four years of knowing these questions would be on the horizon at some point...considering that the traditional philosophy was that the independent seniority list as of 4 August 2010 only needed to be verified. Odd now that they can't even produce that list. Unless, of course, they planned all along to attempt to execute on an extremely progressive, and never accepted before, philosophy of integrating two seniority lists.

For anyone who thinks that this is not important, it may be a good time to highlight that one side has enjoyed higher attrition and higher hiring rates over the past four years while one side has seen marginal, if any, attrition, weaker hiring, and even less upgrade opportunities. This side, the ASA side, would have an even greater negative impact due to this merger if the XJT MEC's tactics were able to come out ahead.
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For this one ASA pilot, I now see that the charade of complaining about our PBS was nothing more than a wall of smoke concealing the true goal of our "Brothers" on the other side of the battlefield - to erode good faith negotiations, to delay as long as practical, and to milk the SLI process by using an extremely radical philosophy to integrate seniority lists.

And here I was thinking some of these guys were good folks. To say I am disappointed is an understatement. Clearly a number of individuals are at fault for the extended period of negotiations, and in no way am I saying I am disappointed by our collective No Vote. I am however, extremely disappointed in the behavior of certain individuals who were, and have been, entrusted by their constituents to make sound decisions that can protect their short-term career stability.

The time for games is over, but I am now, more than ever, extremely concerned that the games being played by the ExpressJet MEC are much more disastrous than I initially expected. My level of respect for their hard work over the past four years is now at a very low level due to this recent news and it concerns me that they would jeopardize the livelihoods of their pilots by wasting excessive amounts of negotiating capital and time on such a ridiculous scheme to undermine seniority.

Imagine if they had put as much effort as they have in developing this strategy into negotiating promptly, negotiating for five days a week instead of three, and working with all parties involved - we might actually have a contract that our pilots would have supported. But, alas, that didn't happen - and here we sit. More games, less results. We, all pilots working under the ExpressJet umbrella, need more results and less games from all parties involved.

Josh, lets call a spade a spade here. You're acting as a mouthpiece for Chris Mank on here as well as several other internet forums because he has discredited himself so severely that it is nearly impossible to find anyone that will subscribe to his delusion at this point. While he enjoyed a short heyday on Facebook during the JCBA vote, he has since been ostracized on there due to his dictator-like censorship actions. It's sad that you can't see this and continue to allow yourself to be used by him in this manner.

That out of the way, the crazy theory above that you're propagating on his behalf can be easily disproved by a quick read of Section 45 of the ALPA Admin Manual, and particularly by the following clause from the ASA/XJT JCBA and ISL Protocol Agreement:

E. General.

1. A pilot hired by ASA or XJT (excluding pilots hired from one carrier to the other) on or after August 3, 2010 shall be placed in order of date of hire on the ISL (in accordance with relevant provisions of the ASA and XJT pilot collective bargaining agreements) just below the most junior ASA or XJT pilot hired by the carriers prior to August 3, 2010.


Simply put, the MEC's have already agreed, in accordance with ALPA Merger Policy, that the seniority lists to be integrated are the ones that existed on August 4, 2010. Every pilot hired on either side after that date will be integrated by date of hire. So the delusional theory above is just that: delusion.

It's unfortunate at a time when three large pilot groups within the fee for departure segment of the industry have stood up and said enough is enough, that some individuals are more interested in continued attempts to advance their own personal agenda by working to divide our groups instead of unify them further.
 
E. General.

1. A pilot hired by ASA or XJT (excluding pilots hired from one carrier to the other) on or after August 3, 2010 shall be placed in order of date of hire on the ISL (in accordance with relevant provisions of the ASA and XJT pilot collective bargaining agreements) just below the most junior ASA or XJT pilot hired by the carriers prior to August 3, 2010.
I knew I read that somewhere. Just couldn't remember where and unfortunately didn't have time to look it up. I would say that definitely does not help the conspiracy theory.

Ultimately the delay comes from some likely unfounded fears and the assumption that time was on our side. Who knew the Pinnacle pilots would get chapter 11 forced down their throats and PSA would play ball with management's wishes to help lower the bar?
 
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