Training Scenario

F9DXER

F9DXER

Well-Known Member
You have a flight doing a redeye to FLL.
Aircraft and crew are CAT 2/3 qualified

FLL forecast calling 1/4 SM, FG in the main body for a 6 hour window. ETA is dead in the middle of that 6 hours.

MIA is the alternate. Forecasting solid VFR.

Metars for FLL have been 1/2 SM FG for the 5 reports prior to wheels up.

An hour after airborne, FLL notams the CAT 2/3 OTS. CAT 1 is available 200 and 1/2 required.

Latest metar for FLL, 1/2 SM FG.

Flight is still 4+ hours away from destination.

What do you do and why?
 
FLL is a CAT 1 only airport, surprisingly lol but assuming this hypothetical scenario, I would continue on as long as the CA agrees. If I had the fuel for it, I would consider adding a second alternate. That would comply with Exemption 3585 (assuming your airline has this exemption in their OpSpecs).
 
FreshPrince1503 said:
FLL is a CAT 1 only airport, surprisingly lol but assuming this hypothetical scenario, I would continue on as long as the CA agrees. If I had the fuel for it, I would consider adding a second alternate. That would comply with Exemption 3585 (assuming your airline has this exemption in their OpSpecs).
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Can’t use 3585 since it’s in the main body
 
Htown19 said:
File my ASAP because I dispatched a fight illegally. Call FLL airport ops telling them to lay off the crack since they’re NOTAMing an approach that doesn’t exist. And calling MCO to make sure their morning crew is ready for a 5am divert
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The only other saving grace would be a controlling METAR / visibility once you got within an hour ETA. The last 5 trending at 1/2sm so there is potential to shoot the approach as long as your alternate remains legal. I'm unsure if this example meant to theoretically have an operational CAT II/III before point of dispatch and was notamd. Otherwise the aircraft should have never been pushed.
 
I agree with OttoPilot. Keep going, check it every hour & when you get to the final hour. 4 hours is a lot of time for something to happen, weather-wise. It could go to 1/4 but then I'd ask what is the RVR and is it also trending down? That's going to be important for the PIC to make a decision especially with fog because it could be patchy or uneven. The weather reporting station location could be 1/4 but the td zone RVR could be 24 - or vice versa.
 
I’d just keep going. If FLL has live RVR and assuming FLL uses live RVR just keep an eye on that. You said you had a solid alternate (at the time) so keep an eye on the alternate mins. Also… I don’t think FLL has a CAT II approach, so I’d definitely fill out an ASAP.

Additionally, FLL and MIA are very close together, so I’d consider adding a different or second alternate since you could see low vis at MIA too. If you can’t do this with the fuel on board, I would say divert, maybe within hour distance. Try to maybe depart on the metar top of the hour if that 1/2 mile or RVR is still holding up if you’re feeling confident.
 
FLL is a CATI airport only so the CATII/CATIII scenario is irrelevant (and you didn't state we were playing pretend for discussion). I'm going to assume they notamd out their non-existent approaches by mistake.

The reg to depart IFR is WX indicated at ETA has to be AOA landing mins 1/2sm. Assuming there was other reports or forecasts that indicated it would be AOA 1/2sm at arrival...I'm of the opinion you departed legally even though the TAF forecast was below landing mins. This information would have been required in the briefing pack to the PIC prior to departure, so they were already aware of this before departing.

So with that said, I'm of the opinion nothing has actually changed from departure until now, thus nothing needs to be done except monitor the situation and update the crew as necessary. I do think it was unsmart to use such a close alterternate of identical geography, and you should be running numbers to add RSW/MCO/TPA as a second alternate for safety. If you do not have the extra fuel for that, determining a go/no-go point to dvrt elsewhere if the conditions in MIA begin to deteriorate is also a good idea.

As a side note, I believe my company manuals are more restrictive than the base reg talked about above, so in this scenario I would have to file an ASAP for violating company policy.
 
I apologize for listening specific airports. I should have just stated destination and alternate. Sorry.

The discussion that our group had, was yes the release was valid and the flight was legal to depart.

After the notam came out for no cat 2 or 3.
Was the flight legal to continue?

Our consensus was no.

So, one could change destination to the alternate.

A new route and burn is not required because the company really wants the plane at its original destination.

Burn doesn't change. As the crew has that info. Fuel to destination plus fuel to alternate.

No need to advise ATC

Advise crew of new destination, again do not tell atc, when within an hour of landing and current metar or appropriate RVR tindicates at least landing minimums and atc clears you for the approach. Tell dispatch and we will amend release back to original destination.

The reason I put FLL and MIA, they both have a star that starts at acori. Thus the route ito either airport is mot that different

The reason for not advising atc? Once you do they will give you a new route, plus it lights up on Fusion, and other programs.which causes questions.

Your thoughts?
 
Seems overcomplicated way to skirt a reg that doesn't need skirting if you're doing this based on 135.219...or is there another reg that is driving your determination that this situation is illegal to continue to?
 
F9DXER said:
The discussion that our group had, was yes the release was valid and the flight was legal to depart.

After the notam came out for no cat 2 or 3.
Was the flight legal to continue?

Our consensus was no.
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121.627(b) states the answer is found in your manuals. It's not something you and your colleagues are meant to be deciding on ad-hoc. If it's not in your manuals, file a safety report because that needs to be fixed, and then proceed according to 121.627(a) which states that if the PIC and dispatcher agree that it is safe, the flight can continue to the destination.
 
F9DXER said:
After the notam came out for no cat 2 or 3.
Was the flight legal to continue?

Our consensus was no.
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Your consensus was wrong. What FAR makes it illegal to continue?
F9DXER said:
A new route and burn is not required because the company really wants the plane at its original destination.
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Is this what you'd tell the FAA to defend your cert in an investigation?
F9DXER said:
The reason for not advising atc? Once you do they will give you a new route, plus it lights up on Fusion, and other programs.which causes questions.
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There should be questions if you have a flight headed to a destination you think it's illegal to continue to.
 
Agreed with above. Now if MIA also went below alt mins and you couldn’t find another alternate due to WX or lack of fuel… you in trouble.
 
F9DXER said:
You have a flight doing a redeye to FLL.
Aircraft and crew are CAT 2/3 qualified

FLL forecast calling 1/4 SM, FG in the main body for a 6 hour window. ETA is dead in the middle of that 6 hours.

MIA is the alternate. Forecasting solid VFR.

Metars for FLL have been 1/2 SM FG for the 5 reports prior to wheels up.

An hour after airborne, FLL notams the CAT 2/3 OTS. CAT 1 is available 200 and 1/2 required.

Latest metar for FLL, 1/2 SM FG.

Flight is still 4+ hours away from destination.

What do you do and why?
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What did flight keys do?? Destination unsuitable?? Sorry captain we have to divert asap.
 
F9DXER said:
Was the flight legal to continue?

Our consensus was no.
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I disagree.
There's no such thing as "legal" to continue in this scenario. It was legal to go up to the point of dispatch and that's what your name is signed to. After that begins the Flight Following phase where to continue or not depends on PIC and your concurrence. It is borderline for CAT I and you have an alternate. That should be all you need. Of course you need to make sure the alternate stays legal and keep following the METAR and RVR trends and relaying changes to the Captain so that you can both make informed decisions.

Not knowing what airline we're talking about and where their stations are I probably would have looked at MCO or RSW as alternates just so it gives me more fuel than MIA = more airborne time which could be used if the PIC wanted to hold for a bit. The option to switch to MIA later for operational purposes if its legal would still be on the table.
 
This is a good example to how this job can be made needlessly more difficult than it needs to be. The real issue that should be addressed is why do you and your colleagues feel you need to force a favorable outcome out of an unfavorable condition? If you and the capt determine the flight is not able to continue (even incorrectly) then steps need to be taken to address that. New destination/alts, routes, whatever has to happen should happen. Plus, the flight is still 4 hours out with plenty of fuel...the plane won't stop flying just because FLL's new CATII/III equipment is broke. You can always re-amend later on if the wx changes and FLL becomes suitable again.

The better way to go about this would be to have the pilots request ATC to stay on current route to acori for fuel constraints, rather than obscuring your intentions and hoping it all works out in the end. Or even better, don't file MIA as an alternate for a fogged in FLL 😝
 
So it took off legal. It continues. This happens all the time. You inform the captain of the weather/notam situation and let him know you're monitoring but your questionable alternate of MIA is still ok. If you get to FLL and you have mins, you initiate the approach and land. If you do not, you either hold until it goes up or go to mia. If youre way out and it goes below mins, you may consider stopping short in an adventageous hub type station like dallas/houston/ somewhere else on-the-way-ish.
 
OttoPilot13 said:
The only other saving grace would be a controlling METAR / visibility once you got within an hour ETA. The last 5 trending at 1/2sm so there is potential to shoot the approach as long as your alternate remains legal. I'm unsure if this example meant to theoretically have an operational CAT II/III before point of dispatch and was notamd. Otherwise the aircraft should have never been pushed.
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I agree lol
 
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