Training in Light Sports

M

mdolezal

Well-Known Member
Hey ya'll, just curious if anyone had any input on using Light Sports for training private pilots initially. And heck, while we're at it, what's your take on light sport all together? I'm an instructor at a location that is really pushing using light sports instead of their 172 to save the customer some costs. However, in flying the light sport stuff, I've found they lack controllability, and are much more difficult to fly, and take some of the fun out of it. I guess the case could be made that it makes a person a better stick and rudder guy/girl, but on the other hand, so much time is spent coordinating the plane that the student is focused on that instead of watching for traffic, building a site picture, etc... Not to mention the lack of navigation instruments to cross check position. I dunno, just curious if anyone else had thoughts.
 
I've flown Light Sport Jabiru aircraft for over a year now. It does take a little getting use to, just like flying the Cirrus because of where the joystick is mounted. It is no more of a distraction than flying any other airplane, if you ask me. The only difference is that Light Sport airplanes are 600-800 lbs empty weight.

That airplane is really fun to fly. Controllability is easy and really maneuverable. I can land and takeoff in some conditions in 200 feet.

There is no lack of instruments in the airplanes. Jabiru is fitted with the best avionics a small airplane can have. It has Grand Rapid Technologies EFIS inside of the airplane. Everything a VFR plane needs and even more for the occasional low-visibility days.

One of the best things about the plane is the cargo door, which use to have two extra seats in the back. Now you have even more space to carry all of the wifes' stuff.

Now other light sport airplanes I have seen are a little scary. Especially when they have that Rotax engine, and other planes having weak landing gear mounts.

Just my two cents! :nana2:
 
We don't do any. Nobody in the surrounding area does.
I would like to get into it though. We are starting to get a lot of calls about it.
 
I got an up close look at a FlightDesign LSA yesterday. It seemed a lot more capable than I had given them credit for. It definitely piqued my interest.
 
firebirdswm said:
I got an up close look at a FlightDesign LSA yesterday. It seemed a lot more capable than I had given them credit for. It definitely piqued my interest.
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I'm not sure if they fixed their landing gear problems, but that was one airplane that you can't land hard on an accident with a student.
 
Yeah, the light sports we are working with have the Rotax engines, but as for avionics, you are right, the EFIS is pretty cool. It's got a Garmin 396, which yeah, is awesome, but I do like to have the ability to teach what a VOR is in the first place. Agreed, the EFIS feature though on a little plane like these is pretty cool. We've got a Fantasy Air Allegro and Flying Machines Mystique. Both cool lookin' planes, great EFIS, seem like they'd be a ton of fun (doors pop off he Allegro in the summer) but just tough to keep coordinated and hard to get a "feel" for. Anywho, seems to be a decent business in them as far as training for the light sport ticket, just a handful to fly in my opinion.
 
I fly a CT Flight Design for a private owner. I'll be instructing his son & nephew soon. The aircraft is a blast to fly. I've burned 3.5 - 4.0 gallons per hour at 100kts. The 2 axis autopilot and glass panels provide good features for aspiring sport or private pilot's. I use the aircraft primarily for building cross country time and visit various areas of interest. A full tank of fuel goes a long way!

The aircraft doesn't like to slow down. You'll have to stay ahead to ensure your on speed. Gets a little squirely during cross winds.

One flight school I know of has problems with a few of there LSA. The landing gear is a weak point for certain airframes. They don't take the abuse as well as the C-172, C-152, PA-28.
 
In some LSA's you can get a full blown private pilot certificate but in others you can only get a sport certificate. A local examiner was trying to explain the differences but had trouble because it depends on the model of aircraft. The examiner thought that the FAA kinda jumped in on this LSA thing and really didn't have it all sorted out yet.... Such as you can get a sport flight instructor certificate, but if you have one of those you can only teach light sports. A CFI can teach LSA's though... I dunno its confusing....
 
The only purpose I've seen for the LSA is for folks who couldnot otherwise obtain a medical. For example, my friend is paralized from a motorcycle accident and has no lower body control. He is very mobile, drives, hops up onto very high bar stools, and is not otherwise affected by his paralisis. (He's also got a very cool low rider wheelchair.)

He started a company (Phillysportpilot.com) training disabled folks to become pilots, after he obtained his certificate. You've probably seen him as he has a lot of press in various flight magazines. (Sean O'Donnell)

The LSA is a great niche for this market - people who are able to be competnent pilots.

The other pilots I see in the LSA market - folks who know they can't get a medical who were previous, legal pilots. They shouldn't be flying, they're just too bone-headed to recognize it.
 
moxiepilot said:
The only purpose I've seen for the LSA is for folks who couldnot otherwise obtain a medical. For example, my friend is paralized from a motorcycle accident and has no lower body control. He is very mobile, drives, hops up onto very high bar stools, and is not otherwise affected by his paralisis. (He's also got a very cool low rider wheelchair.)
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Why can't he get a medical? There are a lot of paraplegics out there that have medicals and fly certified aircraft, like the Cessna Cardinal. I am flying with one next week. He has a rudder control rigged up that he can operate with his hand. It is a pretty neat design.


mdolezal said:
However, in flying the light sport stuff, I've found they lack controllability, and are much more difficult to fly, and take some of the fun out of it.
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I did training in an Evektor Sport Start and an Indus Thorpedo, and both of them ended up getting totaled by renters/students at my previous flight school I worked at. The Evektor was exactly how you described it: Difficult to control on landing and it made me nervous to solo students in it. The problem was the rediculously small rudder, which was not very controllable at slow airspeeds, but when the nosewheel touched down, it was TOO controllable, which caused some squirrely landings. The Indus was better in that aspect, but it wasn't built to last. It had no ribs in the wings, used motorcycle spark plugs and a jet ski battery.

The other problem is that you get people that have medical problems, vision problems, etc... that come in and expect a pilot's license in 20 hours, which is nearly impossible in these types of aircraft.

All in all, it was a horrible situation.
 
I, too, have been bouncing around in a Jabiru for a bit over a year now. I have one private student now that is starting out in it to save some money. It serves it's purpose and works fine. There are some likes and dislikes with it.
Likes: Instrumentation, easy to fly, etc.
Dislikes: Control setup (I want my own, don't want to nearly hold the student's hand during flight.)

Knowing what I know now, would I learn to fly in this particular plane? Nope.

As Moxie said, LSA can be great for some folks. The ones that scare me are those that have no business in the air. Yet they wake up in the morning, determine that since the made it through another night they must be healthy enough to head out to the airport and blast off.
 
I've flown a Flight Design CTSW and a Remos G3-600. I'm going to agree with everyone else on the CTSW, they have had a history of breaking the landing gear easily. Most of it comes from the very foreign sight picture. The top of the panel is somewhere around the level of your knees, where it meets the windscreen. Add the fact that it has up to 40 degree's of flaps, with dropping ailerons, it has a weird approach angle with full flaps. Really, I found that more than 15 degree's of flaps was all that was nesecary to land. Also, the controls are very, very touchy on the CT, or at least the one I flew was. Barely bump the stick, and your going somewhere in a hurry.
The Remos is a blast to fly. If you put a CTSW and a G3-600 next to each other on the ramp, they look similar, and performance wise, they are similar. Both have the Rotax 912, both had at least one Dynon unit, and a 396 GPS. Both have significantly more cockpit room than a 152, and I'd venture to say they've got more room than a 172 even. Much wider.

Plus, when flying the Remos, and ATC asks for type of airplane, you get to say G3. :)
 
Hi guys was just wondering if any of you knew whether or not the cessna skycatcher was going to be an LSA? A school I want to flight instruct at in the future is said to have some on order.

Also do you think that the 2 recent crashes of the proto-types could be linked to this sence of lack of control some of you speak of?

Thanks
 
pfitmx15 said:
Hi guys was just wondering if any of you knew whether or not the cessna skycatcher was going to be an LSA? A school I want to flight instruct at in the future is said to have some on order.
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yes the skycatcher is an LSA

pfitmx15 said:
Also do you think that the 2 recent crashes of the proto-types could be linked to this sence of lack of control some of you speak of?
Thanks
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I don't know what caused the two accidents. The first was an unrecoverable spin.
 
So as was earlier posted can you get your private in an LSA. I think the earlier poster said it depended on the model...So that begs the question: Will you be able to get the private in the skycatcher???

Also one more question...Since a lot of these LSA's have the ability to get avionics in them that might otherwise not be found in certified airplanes...will you be able to get an instrument rating in them?

Thanks again
 
pfitmx15 said:
So as was earlier posted can you get your private in an LSA. I think the earlier poster said it depended on the model...So that begs the question: Will you be able to get the private in the skycatcher???
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Yes you can.

pfitmx15 said:
Also one more question...Since a lot of these LSA's have the ability to get avionics in them that might otherwise not be found in certified airplanes...will you be able to get an instrument rating in them?

Thanks again
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AMD manufactures a LSA that is IFR certified. Zodiac 601 xli. You can add an instrument rating to a Private Pilot certificate, but not a Sport Pilot certificate.
 
the 2 cessnas that crashed were the only 2 prototypes available. It may be some time before the skycatcher gets certified...
 
mdolezal said:
However, in flying the light sport stuff, I've found they lack controllability, and are much more difficult to fly, and take some of the fun out of it. I guess the case could be made that it makes a person a better stick and rudder guy/girl, but on the other hand, so much time is spent coordinating the plane that the student is focused on that instead of watching for traffic, building a site picture, etc...
Click to expand...

I have a sport glider rating and fly a LSA glider, and not because I can't get a medical. I haven't flown an LSA-Airplane, but I did teach my wife to fly our Grumman Yankee, which is just a bit fast & heavy to be a LSA. It also has vastly different flying qualities than a C-172. I think you may be underestimating the value of being a "better stick and rudder" that comes from learning to fly in an airplane that requires the pilot to fly it all the time.

While it did take my wife little longer to be able to control the airplane and still have enough mental reserves to do all the other tasks, I firmly believe that learning to fly in a more challenging airplane has made her a much, much better pilot. Maybe that's the same reason the military starts its pilots off in a complex high performance turboprop.

BTW, the first time my wife flew a Spam Can (as the Grumman community calls brands C & P) she made an effortless landing without me even touching the flight controls. She couldn't believe how easy that airplane was to fly.
 
My understanding is that you can use an LSA to get a private certificate if it has all of the required equipment. For example, many LSAs are not equipped for night flight.

As for the cost savings, does anyone know what LSAs are renting for?
 
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