Jimmy_Norton
Well-Known Member
So not only do you have a two year training contract, but the pay is crappy too?
Training Agreement
- Thread starter skypilot6
- Start date
So not only do you have a two year training contract, but the pay is crappy too?
skypilot6
Well-Known Member
My pay is average for what I fly according to NBAA. My Dream Job? I know what it is and I know what they pay, its quite a bit more.
staledog
Well-Known Member
Kinda late for that.
U_of_I_Tweak
Well-Known Member
I was in a very similar position several years ago. I had been out of work and signed a very one-sided contract for a position.
I paid a lot to quit and take a much better job. The ensuing year and a half sucked making the payments. In the long run there's no question I'm better off, but it was an awful experience, even though I was making triple the pay at the new job.
I'm not an attorney, nor have I played one on TV, but I have been involved in the enforcement of a contract. That experience has given me wisdom going forward. I hope to help others avoid the same situation.
I was very hesitant to sign the contract. There was no upside for me. The verbal assurances that I had been given to ease my concerns meant nothing when push came to shove. The OP knows his employer better than us, and certainly better than I knew when I signed my contract. Only he can decide whether he's likely to get raked over the coals or treated with respect should he wish to leave before the term is up. Just know that that sum of money is hanging over your head. Unless "termination with cause" is clearly defined, the employer has all the power.
I don't like training contracts. I can understand why a company would want one when dealing with an unknown pilot. I don't get it in this case. I really don't understand the two year term.
The OP seems to have made up his mind. I hope he has a better grasp on the situation than I had.
Sent from my DROID RAZR
drunkenbeagle
Gang Member
They can also be highly negotiable up front.
Say something like "yeah, it looks great. So happy to join the team! I'll just have my attorney look this over for me and get it right back to you."
It comes back from your lawyer with the worst of it crossed out. Employer has the option of having to pay their lawyer to negotiate, or just bite the bullet and let it go. They always let it go. Costs you a few hundred bucks, worst case. Your lawyer gets to feel good about himself too (rare in that business).
No one will rescidnd an employment offer because you had an attorney look at a contract. If they do, it wasn't someplace you wanted to work anyway.
No, there is/was a chance to stop the kibitzing. But if people don't listen, or just make smart aleck comments, then I move it out of that forum and the OP loses out.
If that kind of behavior continues in other threads in this forum then users should actively help steer it away from a free-for-all and let the volunteer expert do his thing without the side show. When nobody helps keep things on track, then eventually a moderator may notice, by which time the damage is probably done.
We are lucky enough to have a doctor and an aviation attorney that VOLUNTEER their valuable time to assist members here. If I were them I would not waste my time wading through pages of uninformed opinion, and we should not expect them to do so.
Remember, if you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
Not rare at all. Not by a long shot. I can safely say that my years as a lawyer has has far more positive experiences than negative ones. Never created a chart but can safely say if I did, the "feel good" would outweigh the "feel bad" by a lot. That's true for most of the lawyers I've come across along the way.
But yes, in many cases they are negotiable. Not so much in others. Depends a lot on the dynamics of the situation. The OP has already been with them for 2 years so he should have a better handle on that than anyone here. That's a big part of any lawyer-client conversation that would take place on the topic (and not on a public forum).
The important key in many cases is for one to understand what the agreement actually says. That's unfortunately not always the case. I've seen contracts created by "sophisticated" businesses where it was clear the business grabbed bits and pieces of contracts online and put them together without a clue as to what some provisions meant.
staledog
Well-Known Member
Whatever. "If people don't listen, or make smart aleck comments"?.....well this thread has been going on since April 22, and you came in on May 6th at post #23, so....you ARE in fact, too late.
Move it if you want, but the original poster isn't going to miss out on anything. Because any lawyer reading this thread only has to read the first post to see that the OP has asked for a PM to get an answer to his question; the VOLUNTEER only needs to see that and does not need to "wade through pages of uninformed opinion" unless he/she wants to (not that it's uninformed anyway, the OP explained his situation pretty well and also helped keep the thread going).
Side notes:
1. -When I log onto this site, the first thing I usually do is click on "new posts". If I see a topic that looks interesting, I'll click on it, and sometimes I comment. I usually don't notice what section it's in (ask an attorney, or whatever).
2. -Topics on this site never stay on track anyway.
3. -This thread has hardly been a "free for all", or a "sideshow". What I've seen has been experienced aviators giving solid advice in an attempt to help the OP's career. Other members in a similar situation may benefit from reading this thread and/or this advice.
Have a nice day.
skypilot6
Well-Known Member
And I do appreciate everyones input and concern, I have contacted PilotDefenseAtorney for further assistance in this matter.
I don't like or fully agree with training agreements/contracts in general, but do understand the reason for them and have dealt with them in the past and fulfilled every one. My company is good enough to keep with for a few more years, and with a more advanced faster aircraft type added to my certificate it should help my career and add a little more diversity of my resume. I'm still a pretty young guy and have plenty of time to climb the ladder possibly elsewhere and make the most out of my career.
I don't like or fully agree with training agreements/contracts in general, but do understand the reason for them and have dealt with them in the past and fulfilled every one. My company is good enough to keep with for a few more years, and with a more advanced faster aircraft type added to my certificate it should help my career and add a little more diversity of my resume. I'm still a pretty young guy and have plenty of time to climb the ladder possibly elsewhere and make the most out of my career.
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Two things about contracts: 1) If there's an illegal component to it such as "you must fly illegal drugs from Columbia," then that's not a legally-binding contract. It IS legal to say, "If you voluntarily leave then you must repay X dollars over Y months after Z date in accordance with this schedule."
2) Employment agreements with a reimbursement feature ARE enforceable, at least in the medical profession - I don't see why that wouldn't translate to aviation. My wife works in hospital administration, overseeing a unit with 200+ nurses. Her master's thesis included how a Dallas hospital did this to reduce turnover or at least recapture part of the investment in nurses when they left for another hospital after being trained. I understand that this practice is being implemented at my wife's hospital. It makes sense to me - the employer has invested money in you which makes you a more valuable employee, with the expectation that you'll stay and they'll recoup their investment. But if you jump ship and go elsewhere for higher pay because you're a more valuable employee, then the original employer is shafted.
If you don't agree with the contract then don't sign it. But don't say that the employer is bad for offering to invest in you with the expectation that you'll stay so they can recover their investment.
2) Employment agreements with a reimbursement feature ARE enforceable, at least in the medical profession - I don't see why that wouldn't translate to aviation. My wife works in hospital administration, overseeing a unit with 200+ nurses. Her master's thesis included how a Dallas hospital did this to reduce turnover or at least recapture part of the investment in nurses when they left for another hospital after being trained. I understand that this practice is being implemented at my wife's hospital. It makes sense to me - the employer has invested money in you which makes you a more valuable employee, with the expectation that you'll stay and they'll recoup their investment. But if you jump ship and go elsewhere for higher pay because you're a more valuable employee, then the original employer is shafted.
If you don't agree with the contract then don't sign it. But don't say that the employer is bad for offering to invest in you with the expectation that you'll stay so they can recover their investment.
Bumblebee
Commodore
In the Expert Forums (Ask a Flight Surgeon, Ask an Aviation Attorney) we work very hard to keep things on topic. Other forums we work to keep things civil, not necessarily on topic. Does that make sense?
We don't want to have the Doc or Esq digging around armchair experts muddying the water…
This is in General Forums now…eventually if people decide to go way off reservation, it goes to the Lav…and then swirls.
As Steve and Bumblebee already said, keeping the professional advice forums such as the flight surgeon and the aviation attorney as a clean Q&A, with a little discussion here and there, is what we strive for. The rest of the argumentative crap can stay in other places.
Too, it appears the OP has made his decision and apparently an informed one at that for his needs, and is looking for some advice specifics moving forward. So arguing for/against training contracts in general, as it relates to this particular thread, is kind of pissing in the wind. What's done is done.
Too, it appears the OP has made his decision and apparently an informed one at that for his needs, and is looking for some advice specifics moving forward. So arguing for/against training contracts in general, as it relates to this particular thread, is kind of pissing in the wind. What's done is done.
I already moved this out of the Attorney's forum so the topic is open for general discussion. No harm, no foul.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
Good decision....
And it's too bad @SteveC decided to move the thread for the few non-legal comments because this should probably be mentioned there:
There are going to be questions that should be answered privately. As the disclaimer @Derg put on the "Ask.." forum says, the information being provided is for general information only. It is not legal advice, does not create an attorney-client relationship, and is not confidential. So that limits the type of answers @PilotDefenseAttorney can provide unless you contact him directly.
At the same time, the rules of professional responsibility that govern the conduct as attorneys have restrictions on what attorneys can advertise and to what extent we can solicit. And, if you've heard the usual "state law varies a lot" line when it comes to employment contracts, you ain't seen nuttin yet when you compare that to the ways the different states interpret their advertising and solicitation rules!
Add newfangled electronic communications and social media (including online forums) to the mix and it really gets interesting! Especially once we know there is a real legal issue. I don't know PilotDefenseAttorney personally, Not his ful name nor where he practices. But I can certainly understand if he hesitates contacting someone who has asked a personal specific issue to discuss. I don't even know how he would respond to a PM for advice.
Old Pete
Cockpit Authoritarian
I went to a legal seminar a couple of weeks ago where Scott Greenfield (who is an attorney and has a popular blog) spoke about ethics, professional responsibility and the internet. It was an interesting presentation.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
Must have been. I did one for the Lawyer Pilots Bar Association's meeting in Orlando last year on social media. Fascinating subject and continually changing.
texas_pilot
Well-Known Member
Things change, after 2008 a company freaked and the pilot shortage was over.
Contracts for new hire pay raises were thrown out-
there is' no set in stone' and you're best interests are not in theirs.
Contracts for new hire pay raises were thrown out-
there is' no set in stone' and you're best interests are not in theirs.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
It's changing fast enough that I wouldn't want to end up on the wrong end of an discipline board that doesn't know how to handle a situation and decides to attempt to drop the hammer.
It might be the risk adverse training I received, but it's not something I care to find out about first hand.