Too old to become a pilot?

[jskibo]

From personal perspective:

Year 1 Navy $14K
Year 2 Navy $14.5K
Year 3 Navy $15K
Year 4 Navy $15.5K (OK, finally enough time in to get free school)
Year 5 School (free, make $750 a month on GI Bill and VA Job)
Year 6 School (free, make $1500 a month on GI Bill and McDonnell-Douglas Co-Op )
OK enough of school already.....Decide to drop flying as a major, finish Av Mgmt degree
Year 5 School (free, make $1500 a month on GI Bill and McDonnell-Douglas Co-Op )
Year 6 Holy Crap I'm almost 30......McDonnell-Douglas $37K
Year 7 McDonnell-Douglas $37.5K God I hate cubes
Year 8 Boeing (After we bought them using their money) $40K <---had to move to Wichita to get that
Fast Forward
Year 12 Boeing $75K <------- Another move to Philly
Year 14 Boeing $90K <------- One more move to OKC and 4 months a year in Saudi running programs
Year 17 Boeing $100k+ <--------what, another move? SoCal? Well there goes that raise
Year 20 GE $100k+ <-------move back to midwest

Now I almost wish I would have kept the flight major and dumped the easy road to employment Ah well, now I can fly without going in the hole and set up for Career #2 while wife continues to climb the corporate ladder.

 

[Murdoughnut]

Yup. A lot of business jobs aren't much better. What else is there?

Pilot (assuming you don't go to college which is recommended)
Year 1 -$60k investment at ATP flight school for zero to hero. (270 hrs TT)
Year 2 -Flight instruct and make anywhere from $10k to $35k depending on how busy the school is. (900hrs TT)
Year 3 -Repeat (1500 hrs TT)
Year 4 -Start at a regional and make $23k
Year 5 -$30k
Year 6 -$35k
Year 7 -$40k
Year 8 -$40k
Year 9 -Upgrade $65k
Year 10-$70k
Year 11-Get hired by a major if you're lucky. Pay is back down to $50k and you're back on reserve.
Year 12-$70k
Year 13-$85k From here upgrade is at least a decade, maybe two.

Business

Year 1-$20k investment college
Year 2-$20k investment college
Year 3-$20k investment college
Year 4-$20k investment college
Year 5-Get your first job in management, marketing, finance, accounting, etc. $35k-$45k
Year 6-$45.5k
Year 7-$46k
Year 8-Promotion $55k
Year 9-$55.5k
Year 10-$56k
Year 11-$56k
Year 12 $56k
Year 13-Promotion to manager if you're lucky. $90k-$110k with your bonus and work 50-60+ hours

A big factor, though - in the business world, if I decide to leave my company and go someplace else because pay has been frozen five years, I don't have to start at the bottom again.

 

[Counselor]

My business plan looked like this:

Year 1:$25.00 library membership- Learn the streets and basic Chemistry
Year 1(later on): $250,000

of course the product is Meth and PCP...so just saying
(I may or may not have been watching Breaking Bad lately)

Awesome. Hahaha.

 

[SteveCostello]

A big factor, though - in the business world, if I decide to leave my company and go someplace else because pay has been frozen five years, I don't have to start at the bottom again.

From what I understand, if you don't go 121, it doesn't necessarily have to be that way.

 

[Murdoughnut]

From what I understand, if you don't go 121, it doesn't necessarily have to be that way.

That's true, I've had friends leave 121 for nice gigs on the corporate side, or move from one corporate gig to another.

 

[jtrain609]

From what I understand, if you don't go 121, it doesn't necessarily have to be that way.

That's correct, but you trade going to the bottom of the seniority list for other things.

At an airline, you know where you stand. You have X number of people above you, and Y number below you. You have a pretty good idea at the start of each month how many days off you'll hold. For the most part, I don't hold less than 15 days off per month unless I chose to. With that, you have a schedule, and unless things really go to pot, it's exactly what you do. I get 2 weeks of vacation a year right now, which translates to 3 weeks off if I able to hold a decent schedule.

There are good corporate jobs out there, but in an age of austerity, what's to say the flight department is going to stick around? What about the gigs that have you on call 24 hours a day with no set days off? What about when the boss says, "I need you to go out for the next 2 weeks" and you say, "But that wasn't our agreement" and his response is, "then find a new job."

I hate sounding like a huge kool aid drinker, because I'm not by any stretch of the imagination, but with a bit of seniority, an airline gig ain't all bad. If you've got good managers (which I do), a good contract (which I do) and decent seniority (which I do) then the hyperbole of the internet starts to make less and less sense.

 

[N519AT]

Not too old to become a pilot.

Right now I'm on First Year pay at a regional with an "okay" contract (first contract for this airline/pilot group) and I'm on par to make about $23-24k this year.


This post brought to you by beta from my iPhone.

 

[Hacker15e]

I'm 46.

Just today I was talking to a SWA pilot who was recently hired and had a guy who was 61 in his newhire training class!

If it makes you happy...

 

[Romulus]

I worked with a guy up here in Alaska recently that had started commercial flying at 55. Retired from long haul trucking. Worked up here for a few years flying a 207 and is now down in Montana flying an MU-2. We have a couple guys around your age that started flying later. If you want to make it happen you will figure it out.

 

[RICHARD5]

OP didn't say what's is family status. THAT is a big deal as Murdoughnut implied in post #2.

No family I say reach as far as you desire. With family I say stay close to home. Flight instructing allows being home every night (except for student night requirements) plus the benefit of networking and gaining experience in various type aircraft.

BTW: I nominate Jtrain's post as a sticky. Just this once mind you.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

That's true, I've had friends leave 121 for nice gigs on the corporate side, or move from one corporate gig to another.

True. Out of our last 13 newhires, 9 have been prior 121. There are a lot of advantage to good, corporate part 91 over 121 not the least of which are money, time off, and benefits that far exceed those in all but the very best 121 jobs.

JTrain is right though, in exchange for those benefits is some uncertainty. Layoffs generally don't come with recalls and they almost never go in reverse-seniority order. You are evaluated one or more times a year and your pay and longevity are predicated on your performance. There are no contracts. Standard operating procedures and ISBAO certification will keep you from doing anything silly, but outside of those parameters anything to get the job done is the name of the game.

Still, most good corporate gigs are not entry level jobs. There are no set minimums for most (to allow for the "friends and family" program), but I think if you polled a few Fortune 500 pilots you would find that most have several thousand hours, several type ratings, etc. So the OP may choose to take that path, but it will still require many years of time-building whether those years occur at a regional airline, Part 135, or one of those rare flight schools where Instructing is treating as a profession and compensates its employees appropriately.

I don't think he is too old. The question of selfishness is one that could be applied to all of us. Is it not selfish every time we take a pay cut and move our families halfway across the country (or the world) to pursue the next big step (or perceived next big step) in our careers? Why would you add debt and decrease income on your family? Why would you commute, increasing the time you need to be away? Selfishness, whether we choose to admit it or not, is as much a part of being a pilot as is Shiny Jet Syndrome. It's built into our DNA. We are hard-charging people who always want bigger, faster, better... sometimes at the expense of more money... more time off...

So, if this gentleman wants to pursue aviation, then by all means he should do so. But this thread is good for him. He will go in with eyes wide open and will understand what he is getting into. Hopefully that will help him make a good, educated decision that works for he and his family.

I think his first step, however, is a private pilot certificate. For a little more than it costs to enjoy a hobby golfing, boating, or owning an RV he can earn a private and enjoy flying friends and family. Even if he never goes one step further in aviation, that is a terrific accomplishment and a nice one-liner on his resume that may serve him in the future. He could volunteer his flying services to non-profit organizations like Angel Flight, Puppy Rescue Mission, etc who are always looking for good samaritan private pilots. He could offer to teach in remote Ugandan villages... I don't know. I'm sure there are lots of thing he could do with a private pilot license.

I guess my point is this,
1. no it's not too late.
2. Walk before you run.
3. Don't believe what airline pilots tell you about corporate flying or what corporate pilots tell you about airline flying.
4. Believe everything that corporate pilots who used to be airline pilots tell you because they are smart.
5. Don't trust people in law school who call you "Holmes"

 

[FlyingScot]

I went back to my high school reunion a few years ago and caught up with old friends. One of my closest friends back then was a teacher and made more than twice as much as me as a pilot of 10 years. I found out another schoolmate was a Captain at a major flying 75 and 76s internationally.

When I signed up to be a pilot the career "promised" me was
Year 1 -$24k investment for training
Year 2 -Flight instruct
Year 3 -RJ FO
Year 4 -Choice of moving to left seat of the regional or start as FO with the majors
Year 5 -Making 6 figures.
Year 6 - who cares I'm making 6 figures
Year 7 or 8 fly to Hong Kong or Amsterdam 3 times a month, get 17+ days off a month.

I think the one thing to consider is the opportunity costs of flying verses another career choice. I think Jet's proposed income (if your lucky enough to get on with a good regional) is accurate enough to compare current career spending for training and future income. The opportunity cost for flying vs any job that will pay 35k a year is over $100,000 the first 4 years. You also have the likelihood of having to move a half dozen times for flight training or changing bases over the next 10 years.

Even with the great career path I was offered back in 2000, it was a hard choice to make as I knew there was historic instability in the industry, sacrifices of family life and the ability to loose your career for a small medical hiccup. I got my private pilot license as a way to test the waters and study up on the career before committing full time to becoming a pilot, but I was employed and single at the time. If you have the resources to survive the first 5 years, the support of your family, and the willingness to make all these sacrifices go for it.

Yup. A lot of business jobs aren't much better. What else is there?

Pilot (assuming you don't go to college which is recommended)
Year 1 -$60k investment at ATP flight school for zero to hero. (270 hrs TT)
Year 2 -Flight instruct and make anywhere from $10k to $35k depending on how busy the school is. (900hrs TT)
Year 3 -Repeat (1500 hrs TT)
Year 4 -Start at a regional and make $23k
Year 5 -$30k
Year 6 -$35k
Year 7 -$40k
Year 8 -$40k
Year 9 -Upgrade $65k
Year 10-$70k
Year 11-Get hired by a major if you're lucky. Pay is back down to $50k and you're back on reserve.
Year 12-$70k
Year 13-$85k From here upgrade is at least a decade, maybe two.

 

[flyinggreasemnky]

Being that you are married and have a family, the number one thing I would have to say is make sure your significant other can take you being gone for long periods of time. There is a reason that so many pilots are divorced, as being gone all the time takes its toll on a relationship. (It is even harder when you have kids.) Your spouse needs to be the type of person who is self reliant and can deal with the separation. If you end of up going the airline route because of the ability to commute , you will be lucky to see them two days a week which can easily be cut down to none at the drop of a hat. You may have 16 days off a month on your schedule but commuting can easily reduce it to 8 days actually at home. It takes a great deal of effort by both parties to maintain a relationship in this profession. Your wife will need to understand that she will be spending several nights a month alone and you have to make sure she is willing to do this.

The best thing a family man can do is live in base as not losing days off to commuting is huge. Additionally, driving in the morning of gives your family one more night with you. Unless you currently live in a major city with an airline base, you would have to move your family, if you want good QOL, for a 20k a year job. There are many people that make commuting and a relationship work but it takes the right type of people.

That being sad, I wouldn't trade this job for a cubicle or going back to being a mechanic again. I am currently on first year pay again and still wouldn't trade this career for something else. I have been lucky to find a woman who can deal with my career choice and is very supportive of it. She did know what she was getting into though as I was working as a survey pilot when we met (I was on the road straight for 7 months). My attitude might change if I'm my third furlough and fifth marriage but for now I enjoy this career.

 

[beasly]

I don't disagree with you in principle, but there's another side to this, and that is that starting over in ANY new career has the same pitfalls.

Let's use an example of something that we're both way more familiar with than we'd like to be. Let's say that this was lawyercareers.com, and somebody came on here saying at 45, they wanted to become an attorney!

The discussion would follow the same form that it does here. First, people would say, "NOOOOO!!!! You're going to spend $150,000 to get your law degree!!! You will, quite literally, not pay back that debt while you're still alive!!!!" This would likely be a true statement.

But then the guy would say, "But what about the return!? I've gotta make some money now!"

Then the forum would scream, "NOOOOOOO!!!!! There aren't any jobs! Steve over there was a bar tender for three years after law school, and has been doing document review in the evenings because he's desperate for any kind of work he can get!"

Steve would, if he could even FIND a job as an attorney, start by making $30,000 a year. There was actually one firm in Boston recently that offered to pay new associates $10,000 a year. Guess what? They got 50 applicants.

http://www.abajournal.com/news/arti...r_10000-a-year_boston_law_firm_associate_job/

And it doesn't stop. While you're trying to service $1,500 a month in debt, you're making under $30,000 a year. Oh and the first 5 years you practice you're basically committing malpractice every time you speak to a client. So maybe after 5 years of practice (which is 8 years after even starting down this new career path), if you've worked REALLY hard, you MAY be able to find a new job where you can work 80 hours a week, probably make some decent coin (into the six figure range), never see your family, and die alone in your office at 55 when you stroke out.

So is it really that different? As far as I see things now (and I didn't used to see things this way, I thought the same way as you), by becoming a pilot you have a smaller investment in education, a shorter period of time of making almost no money, and there's huge upside potential. You don't need to go to the Harvard of the Skies, graduate top of your class, and then sell your soul for 8 years just to get to a reasonable place in this career. ATP will finish you up after your private pilots license for $50,000. You can get that done in 90 days. Then you instruct with them for a year and whammo, you're sitting in the right seat of an RJ with 2 years into this gig. Sure, you make $19,000 first year, but if you went to law school you'd still be PAYING $40,000 a year for the privilege of experiencing some bizarre academic hazing ritual that doesn't actually teach you must of anything. By the time you hit year 2 or 3 at a regional with the amount of movement we're going to have, you can make $50,000 a year, probably hold down 15 days off per month, and not really be in too bad of shape.

Now does that mean I think it's ok for us to make $19,000 to fly an RJ around first year? No, I think it's a scam. But lots of reasonable careers are scams when you get moving. For lawyers, the people that will be successful are the ones that will win at all costs, and press through to make their careers happen against all odds. Pilots are the same way. Do you need some luck? Sure! But you always do. But luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity, and if you network well, and make a name for yourself as not being a hack of a pilot, you'll MOST LIKELY land on your feet. Hell, even ZapBrannigan has been able to make things work pretty well after getting knocked off his horse more times than a dude in the rodeo.

True.

Its a mind set.

Also, the economy is going to hell, the dollar is collapsing and there will be a need for pilots in WWIII.

Ask yourself, in a complete world-wide societal breakdown, which would you rather be? a cube jockey or a pilot?

Plus, with the complete societal meltdown, you don't even have to write off your debts--'POOF!' they are gone.

 

[Tommay85]

sglowacz, I'm going to make a suggestion to get in touch with JaceTheAce'sDad. He's an older gentleman that worked his way up and is now flying freight. I've only talked to his son, JaceTheAce briefly about it, so I don't know what his goals are.

To put things in perspective, if you started soon, you have 19 years(the length of time it takes for kids to go from baby to snot nosed teenager ) until the age 65 mandatory retirement. Most of my peers in college that pursued the 121 right made it to the right seat in 3-6 years. That could give you potentially 16-14 years of working time for a potential employer. This is if you go 121 obviously. With a bit of luck, you could be pulling in 6 figures as a captain at a place like Skywest or Air Wisconsin. This is the 121 world however. As much as I have a preference towards part 91 corporate, 121's one merit that trumps everything else is that you know what you're going to get, as others have pointed out. Yeah, some companies are worse than others, but the differences are relatively minor.

This is all best case scenario of course. It's going to take a lot of "GO GO GO" with no breaks on your part and a little bit of luck to see a return though. Given the direction things are moving, In my opinion, I think the regionals will have solid hiring in the future.

Now, I'm still young and still a bit inept with financial matters, but about my ONLY concern in switching careers down the road would be "Can I recoup and make enough money to retire?", which being older and wiser, I'm sure you have too. I guess what I'm getting at is if you're going to burn through every dime you've ever saved just to finish training, I'd take what everyone's said into consideration very carefully. There's just no guarantees in aviation.

Oh, and I haven's seen anyone address the pilot medical yet. Before committing to anything, I'd consider finding an AME and see if you can get a first class medical. I'd talk in depth with your doctor about any concerns about being able to maintain your health to that level as well. I guess that is the one guarantee in aviation. Losing one's medical is sure to throw a wrench into anyone's plan or career.

 

[HerrGruyere]

Maintaining your medical might be the biggest challenge.

 

[Nathaniel Ventura]

I actually have a story. My professor was first a Nuclear Physicist before being a Biomedical Engineer mostly involved with premature birth from, and he switched his career into aviation around your age, his wife told him "Your old, why are you switching your career from something that's demanding, stressful, good pay, to something that's demanding, stressful, and bad pay?" . He still went with it, and eventually they had a divorce. However, he was working for an airliner for a number of years, then became was an instructor, and is now a physics teacher in the school year and taught Intro into Aviation Business to highschool students wanting college credits (Like me) in the summer time. He flies a Mooney M20 currently. I can tell you he's a happy guy and makes trips around the western hemisphere so often.


Also as HerrGruyere said, maintaining your medical will be the hardest. My professor recently was denied a medical because he was a bit overweight and is losing his peripheral vision, but is on a diet.

 

[FlyingScot]

I actually have a story. My professor was first a Nuclear Physicist before being a Biomedical Engineer mostly involved with premature birth from, and he switched his career into aviation around your age, his wife told him "Your old, why are you switching your career from something that's demanding, stressful, good pay, to something that's demanding, stressful, and bad pay?".

Inspiring story but it would be an easier decision to make if there was a "career something that's demanding, stressful, good pay" to fall back on. I worked with a guy that is an MIT grad in some science discipline and followed his dream into aviation and at 55 has been flying freight for 6 years. He finally has his 1000 Turbine PIC and is waiting for the call from Southwest.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

. He finally has his 1000 Turbine PIC and is waiting for the call from Southwest.

How's that working out?

 

[SteveC]

How's that working out?

I thought it was automatic??!?!??