To Log Or Not To Log

RWH1986

Some Guy
Right now I am flying a Piper Warrior and within the next month or two I will be stepping up to a Beechcraft Bonanza. I have my PPL and have been logging all flight training time as PIC but when I go to the bonanza can I still log that time before I get my complex/high perf endorsement as PIC as well or only after. How many hours do I need to actually get my endorsement.
 

c172captain

Well-Known Member
This is going to open up a can of worms and numerous FAR references, but I think you should NOT log it as PIC. Simply put... could you fly the plane if you were by yourself? Would you know how to operate all of the controls and the various intricacies of the systems? If an emergency occured, would you be able to act properly to remedy the problem and continue conducting a safe flight?

If you answered no to any of these questions, you are not qualified to act as PIC.

That being said, I'm sure that for those of you who disagree with what I have said, you will have FAR citations to back yourself up, good for you.

My .02
 

tgrayson

New Member
when I go to the bonanza can I still log that time before I get my complex/high perf endorsement as PIC
Yes.

Logging PIC requires that you have the proper rating for the aircraft, which, in this case, is SEL. An endorsement is not a rating. So this is one of those curious cases where you are not yet qualified to *act* as PIC, but you can log it as such. The relevant regulation is 61.51(e).

Odds are that your instructor will be unaware that this time can be legally logged by you prior to the endorsement, because it's one of the most tightly kept secrets in the aviation industry. You don't need his permission to log anything, but if you wish to prove it to him, ask and we can provide the documentation, if the regulation alone isn't enough.
 

TrustMeI'maPilot

Well-Known Member
If you answered no to any of these questions, you are not qualified to act as PIC.
Remember there is a difference in acting as PIC and logging PIC. In this case the instructor is acting as PIC while you can log PIC as sole manipulator of the controls. Of course only as long as your private certificate is for ASEL (in this case).
 

RWH1986

Some Guy
Thanks for the input my instructor said I could not but I heard otherwise from other instructors. I will never be alone since school does not allow solo flights in the bonanza.
 

Sisson2011

Well-Known Member
I did when I was flying the Piper Arrow w/ my instructor before receiving my complex endorsement, as does everyone else at our flight school.
 

germb747

Well-Known Member
Yes.

Logging PIC requires that you have the proper rating for the aircraft, which, in this case, is SEL. An endorsement is not a rating. So this is one of those curious cases where you are not yet qualified to *act* as PIC, but you can log it as such. The relevant regulation is 61.51(e).

Odds are that your instructor will be unaware that this time can be legally logged by you prior to the endorsement, because it's one of the most tightly kept secrets in the aviation industry. You don't need his permission to log anything, but if you wish to prove it to him, ask and we can provide the documentation, if the regulation alone isn't enough.
I agree with you that yes it can be technically logged as PIC, but as for it being "one of the most tightly kept secrets" I don't know about that. The question you have to ask yourself is, what is it worth? Yes, the "PIC" time will count towards FAA certificates and ratings if that's what you're building PIC time for. On the other hand, if you're building time for employment purposes, nobody gives a rats rear about your PIC time unless you've signed for the aircraft.
 

tgrayson

New Member
I agree with you that yes it can be technically logged as PIC, but as for it being "one of the most tightly kept secrets" I don't know about that.
That was a joke, son. And a polite way to tell him that his instructor may be wrong.

nobody gives a rats rear about your PIC time unless you've signed for the aircraft.
Not true. Many (most?) entry level positions won't care.
 

-=Deniz=-

Well-Known Member
also too the bonanza is a copletely different plane. You'll see from the time you put in the throttle on takeoff to climbout to landing. Log it whatever way you want if your gonna be flying it with an instructor though you are gonna have to let him sign your book, unlesss you forgot it at home.
 

germb747

Well-Known Member
That was a joke, son. And a polite way to tell him that his instructor may be wrong.



Not true. Many (most?) entry level positions won't care.
"Son"? :laff: After re-reading your post, I can see you weren't serious. As far as legitimate PIC time goes, every airline pilot app I ever read clearly spells out that "PIC time" for the purpose of their application, means PIC per FAR Part 1. Maybe I haven't read enough of them, but I though that was pretty much standard.
 

Hacker15e

Dunning–Kruger Observer
If you're ever in doubt, don't do it.

C'mon, we're talking about a couple of hours at worst. Not exactly what you'd call a significant amount of time...would that be worth it?
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the input my instructor said I could not but I heard otherwise from other instructors. I will never be alone since school does not allow solo flights in the bonanza.
Test for your instructor: you show him the reg that says you can; ask him to show you the reg that says you can't. If he starts anywhere other than 61.51, he's automatically wrong.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
"Son"? :laff: After re-reading your post, I can see you weren't serious. As far as legitimate PIC time goes, every airline pilot app I ever read clearly spells out that "PIC time" for the purpose of their application, means PIC per FAR Part 1. Maybe I haven't read enough of them, but I though that was pretty much standard.
If you are logging only for the airlines, you will only log their version of PIC time. If you are trying to meet FAA qualifications - like an instrument rating, a commercial certificate or to meet 135 requirements for that mom & pop 135 check run where you are the pilot they like - you'll log the FAA's version of PIC time and deal with a later job application the way people have done forever in all walks of life - report your experience to reflect the information they ask for.

Besides, I think it is incorrect to say that
"PIC time" for the purpose of their application, means PIC per FAR Part 1.
I've heard that the airlines don't count safety pilot PIC time and that's =definitely= Part 1 PIC time.
 

tgrayson

New Member
Maybe I haven't read enough of them, but I though that was pretty much standard.
For the majors, it probably is. But if you will review old threads on this topic, you will find many operators don't care. When you're hiring 300 hour Commercial pilots, it's really kinda ironic to turn your nose up at "sole manipulator" PIC time.
 

germb747

Well-Known Member
If you are logging only for the airlines, you will only log their version of PIC time. If you are trying to meet FAA qualifications - like an instrument rating, a commercial certificate or to meet 135 requirements for that mom & pop 135 check run where you are the pilot they like - you'll log the FAA's version of PIC time and deal with a later job application the way people have done forever in all walks of life - report your experience to reflect the information they ask for.

Besides, I think it is incorrect to say that I've heard that the airlines don't count safety pilot PIC time and that's =definitely= Part 1 PIC time.
Isn't that pretty much what I said? FAA counts it for certificates/ratings, towards 135 mins, etc per 61.51, however the airlines want it presented a different way. I simply recommend you give yourself a means to extract your actual time as PIC. This debate has been going on for many years; this isn't my first rodeo. BTW, safety pilot time isn't always =definitely= PIC.
 

germb747

Well-Known Member
:)

I'm pretty sure that Mark (MidlifeFlyer) is aware of that. Check out the FAQ on his website:

http://www.midlifeflight.com/faq/faq.php?s=1#6

;)
Good website and good explanations. The ultimate answer to this thread--your logbook is a legal document, log your time IAW 61.51. When it comes time to fill out airline applications, be careful to present the time in a way they want to see it. Personally, I have two columns in my electronic logbook; one keeps track of PIC "sole manipulator" time and the other keeps track of PIC "in command" time.

Why the FAA had to write the regulations such that "PIC" contradicts itself, I wish I knew (could someone enlighten me)? Logically, you'd think "PIC time" should mean the time you are the PIC. Time you're simply the flying pilot should be called something else, the USAF calls this "primary time".
 

SteveC

Really?
Staff member
Personally, I have two columns in my electronic logbook; one keeps track of PIC "sole manipulator" time and the other keeps track of PIC "in command" time.
:yeahthat:

One is just "PIC" and the other is "61 PIC". Makes it easy as pie.
 
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