Time first or Turn First?? (5 T's)

time then turn

if you are already in a turn when you start your timer, you'll overshoot it! :)
 
I say time but definitely interested in what others say. I just want to get the time started as accurately as I can so I can identify the MAP as best as I can.
 
There's no right way and there's no wrong way. It's all technique. Everyone's T's will be different from everyone elses, some will have 4 T's some will have 5, some will have 6 and many more. As long as you shoot the approach correctly, don't break any regs or put yourself in danger, you're doing it right.
 
shdw said:
This sounds a lot like do I take a step first or chew my gum first...
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I like that answer.

I think of the 5 Ts (yeah, you can come up with 6 or 7 or 8, probably 22 if you want, but why screw up one of the very few decent mnemonics out there?) as a pre-fix briefing of tasks to perform when you get to the fix not necessarily the order in which you do them. It's a way of staying ahead of the airplane.

The order in which you do them may vary with the circumstances and, in "briefing" mode, the order in which you consider them just barely matters.

Besides, since "time" takes all of 1/4 second, does it really matter whether you take a step (turn) first or chew your gum (time) first or do them both together?
 
I asked two of my CFII co-workers today just to see what they said. Man it was comical, they both are very adamant on time being first. They said "when you cruise in something that is 200 knots plus if you don't start the time first before you turn you will miss your point every single time." Needless to say I rofled on the inside hearing this, I have only been up to a Seminole but entries at 160 were a piece of cake.

IMO if you are incapable of turning the yoke at the same time as pressing a button on a watch then flying isn't for you.

The other reason they gave was, "the order in the book is..." hey tgray is this cognitive dissonance too? Lol

It is amazing that for how smart many pilots are that I speak with there is way to much monkey see monkey do going on. Sure use processes others use, but their process isn't the only one you can and should come up with your own. Who knows in ten years maybe we will be teaching your process, this is how things change and usually it is for the better.
 
I use:

Time
Turn
Twist
Track
Throttle
Talk
Think

Time first, as that's what you're basing your speed and ETA calcs on.
 
Hmmm, that's funny. My CFII was always adamant on turning before timing. The difference being you didn't wait to complete the turn before you time, you time just after you initiated the turn. I fly Seminoles and 182's and that's the method I use with my students as well, and its always worked. Once they get it down cold it becomes a simultaneous turn & time. Like someone else mentioned, it's all technique and ultimately preference. The big key is that you don't leave protected airspace.
 
You're all wrong. The correct order is:

Throttle
Talk (and receive acknowledgement)
Time
Twist
Turn
Track
True
Teach
Tires
Token
 
shdw said:
I asked two of my CFII co-workers today just to see what they said. Man it was comical, they both are very adamant on time being first. They said "when you cruise in something that is 200 knots plus if you don't start the time first before you turn you will miss your point every single time."
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I see their point - a couple of seconds of stopwatch accuracy is very important when every other factor is an estimate :sarcasm:

Scenario: Turns in the hold (or a direct entry). Timing the outbound doesn't start until abeam the fix outbound. If you never turn until after you time, looks like you'll never turn outbound at all.

OTOH, consider a non-precision approach with a timed MDA of 15-30 seconds. You may want to get that timer going very quickly.
 
shdw said:
I asked two of my CFII co-workers today just to see what they said. Man it was comical, they both are very adamant on time being first. They said "when you cruise in something that is 200 knots plus if you don't start the time first before you turn you will miss your point every single time." Needless to say I rofled on the inside hearing this, I have only been up to a Seminole but entries at 160 were a piece of cake.

IMO if you are incapable of turning the yoke at the same time as pressing a button on a watch then flying isn't for you.

The other reason they gave was, "the order in the book is..." hey tgray is this cognitive dissonance too? Lol

It is amazing that for how smart many pilots are that I speak with there is way to much monkey see monkey do going on. Sure use processes others use, but their process isn't the only one you can and should come up with your own. Who knows in ten years maybe we will be teaching your process, this is how things change and usually it is for the better.
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If you're doing a timed approach in an airplane that goes faster than about 170 or so, and you don't have DME or at least some other sort of system to back you up you're probably working for the wrong company. If you're flying in the flat lands and there's nothing to hit its one thing, however, I'd be a little reticent to be driving down on the approach at 200kts on time alone. Now granted, some freight dawgs will certainly assure me that they flew the metro /U partial panel with a sundial, but certainly there has to a better way. At least get a hand held, you don't have to rely on it, but it would be critical if something bad did happen.
 
shdw said:
I asked two of my CFII co-workers today just to see what they said. Man it was comical, they both are very adamant on time being first. They said "when you cruise in something that is 200 knots plus if you don't start the time first before you turn you will miss your point every single time." Needless to say I rofled on the inside hearing this, I have only been up to a Seminole but entries at 160 were a piece of cake.
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And how would they know? What have they flown or experienced to know either way?

I'd do turn/time at the same time, since the plane I flew didn't immediately turn when rolled....if that even made a difference anyway (it didn't), and that was flying penetrations at 300kts. Dirty for landing averaged about 190, and it still didn't make a hill of beans difference which I did first......so long as I didn't delay by 5-10 seconds between turning and timing! :D

ppragman said:
If you're doing a timed approach in an airplane that goes faster than about 170 or so, and you don't have DME or at least some other sort of system to back you up you're probably working for the wrong company. If you're flying in the flat lands and there's nothing to hit its one thing, however, I'd be a little reticent to be driving down on the approach at 200kts on time alone
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Every now and again the DME would be out where I flew into, and I time anyways on any IAP that has it. Still, it was interesting doing a timed approach on some IAPs where what used to be a good few minutes plus from FAF to MAP with the old planes I used to fly, was now about a minute and change.
 
MikeD said:
You're all wrong. The correct order is:

Throttle
Talk (and receive acknowledgement)
Time
Twist
Turn
Track
True
Teach
Tires
Token
Click to expand...
That's the AF version? Explain True and Token. I'm assuming Tires is gear down (like at the FAF?)
 
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