This week's Hearings in NYC

sherpa

Well-Known Member
The company

- There is a liquidity crisis. we need cash infused. We only have one possible lender. Delta
- Delta will not talk to us about new cash or what exact mark they need costs to be. They just want to know how the 1113 is going.
- Delta says to either be the or on par with the lowest cost regionals or be the next Comair.

The Judge

-I am not convinced that the company is bargaining in good faith
- I don't necessarily trust management. Particularly one member of the management team
- I am worried that this bankruptcy is an attempt to perpetuate the race to the bottom
- I am opposed to pay cuts, but at the end of the day, losing 5000 jobs is more important than pay cuts.

ALPA

- There is no future for this airline without a consensual agreement
- Pilots can not fix the company's problems
- We have been negotiating earnestly in good faith
- The company has not illustrated with any concrete evidence why they need what they are asking for
 

bronco21016

I know H.T.M.L. (How To Meet Ladies)
This is so ugly. I don't think the judge is gonna throw it out but I don't see how else the company survives which is worse than a paycut.
 

BobDDuck

Island Bus Driver
This is so ugly. I don't think the judge is gonna throw it out but I don't see how else the company survives which is worse than a paycut.
For the employees of 9E, it loosing your job is certainly worse than a paycut, and I really do hope it turns out well for everybody over there. That said, from an industry point of view, 9E shutting down due to lack of management skills is much better than the company continuing due to the sacrifices of it's employees. Again, I don't wish a job loss on anybody, but it would be a lot easier for me to go into a negotiations session with my company next month and say "Pinnacle shut down because they couldn't manage their way out of a wet paper bag" rather than "Pinnacle's pilots took huge pay cuts, moving the industry average severely downward and now our own payrate proposals look like a huge grab".
 

bronco21016

I know H.T.M.L. (How To Meet Ladies)
For the employees of 9E, it loosing your job is certainly worse than a paycut, and I really do hope it turns out well for everybody over there. That said, from an industry point of view, 9E shutting down due to lack of management skills is much better than the company continuing due to the sacrifices of it's employees. Again, I don't wish a job loss on anybody, but it would be a lot easier for me to go into a negotiations session with my company next month and say "Pinnacle shut down because they couldn't manage their way out of a wet paper bag" rather than "Pinnacle's pilots took huge pay cuts, moving the industry average severely downward and now our own payrate proposals look like a huge grab".
Easily said by the people who will still be employed.

I do agree with you but when you really sit and think about your future it's hard to hope you lose your job vs. a few hundred dollars a month. Of course there will be other jobs but not all of us are yet in a position to pull the chute.
 

jtrain609

Antisocial Monster
I hate to be callous, but why would the judge care about the jobs at all? Aren't the creditors the focus in bankruptcy?
 

jynxyjoe

Queso King
I hate to be callous, but why would the judge care about the jobs at all? Aren't the creditors the focus in bankruptcy?
Nope, focus is the health of the company. The judge is only concerned with the survivability of the company (one) and fairness of the screwjob he puts on the creditors (second). That's why creditors (including pilots) are screwed with their pants on. However, if you provide the DIP financing for the Chapter 11 (Delta) you are driving a lot of the agenda.

Easily said by the people who will still be employed.
I do agree with you but when you really sit and think about your future it's hard to hope you lose your job vs. a few hundred dollars a month. Of course there will be other jobs but not all of us are yet in a position to pull the chute.
No one is going to fall on the sword for you later anyway. We aren't an strong union, and there is no brotherhood of pilots. We are underpaid, we all show up for work anyway, and we do very little to retain longevity benefits and standards of pay, furthermore there is no meaningful desire to push a national seniority list and protect all pilots at all airlines.
 

bronco21016

I know H.T.M.L. (How To Meet Ladies)
Exactly, so why should I hope my place gets shut down in the hopes of preserving the future that will simply be undercut by the next lowest bidder? I'd rather take bankruptcy forced pay cuts (at least we tried right?) than lose my job just to go work at another crap hole regional starting over again.

The idea of shutting it down to preserve pay is great in theory... not so sure it works in reality. My views have been evolving as this drags on. I would argue the place should be shutdown though in the name of the managers we have running the place. Who gave these toddlers the scissors? Ridiculous.
 

Itchy

Well-Known Member
I know nothing about what is going on here. Just a quick question. When it is all done, and nothing left but a smelly fan, will the execs leave the property with trunks full of cash?
 

jtrain609

Antisocial Monster
Exactly, so why should I hope my place gets shut down in the hopes of preserving the future that will simply be undercut by the next lowest bidder? I'd rather take bankruptcy forced pay cuts (at least we tried right?) than lose my job just to go work at another crap hole regional starting over again.
Because when your management group finally runs 9E into the ground and you ARE out of work, those pay rates will have trickled down to the next carrier you may be at, and you're not only going to be stuck with more horrible work rules and pay rates, you'll be doing it on first year pay...again.
 

jynxyjoe

Queso King
Because when your management group finally runs 9E into the ground and you ARE out of work, those pay rates will have trickled down to the next carrier you may be at, and you're not only going to be stuck with more horrible work rules and pay rates, you'll be doing it on first year pay...again.
Well lets be clear hero. The judge will allow us to negotiate, and would prefer us to come up with an agreement, but he will give us whatever damn pay rates he wants.

Also, history lesson, the last time we went through this bankruptcy crap (Mesaba) our concessionary contract was worth more than the Pinnacle one... AND the pinnacle TA they voted down a couple years back. ASA and Eagle were the only ones worth more than our contract in '09 and ASA's was in concession as well. So, OBVIOUSLY there were factors outside our concessions that lowered the bar industry wide. So let's give our guys a chance to work alright?

Christ.
 

jtrain609

Antisocial Monster
Well lets be clear hero. The judge will allow us to negotiate, and would prefer us to come up with an agreement, but he will give us whatever damn pay rates he wants.

Also, history lesson, the last time we went through this bankruptcy crap (Mesaba) our concessionary contract was worth more than the Pinnacle one... AND the pinnacle TA they voted down a couple years back. ASA and Eagle were the only ones worth more than our contract in '09 and ASA's was in concession as well. So, OBVIOUSLY there were factors outside our concessions that lowered the bar industry wide. So let's give our guys a chance to work alright?

Christ.
Give your guys a chance? As if the intertubes is in there litigating against your position?

The chapter 11 process as applied to unionized groups in this country is a sham and should be gotten rid of, so let's be clear on that. In the mean time, all ANY of us are going to do is sit back and watch what happens.
 

jynxyjoe

Queso King
all ANY of us are going to do is sit back and watch what happens.
AND criticize. This crap is tough enough without the peanut gallery.

We are in bankruptcy. We will get whatever the judge determines or whatever the union and company can come to an agreement on. Those rates will exist and force other carriers in Chpt 6 negotiations right now (most of DCI) to negotiate around them. Eagle got through the process very well considering and we are hoping to do the same. We hope to do the same. If your plan to raise the bar is for all of us to jump on the sword I'd buckle up.
 

kellwolf

Piece of Trash
This is what I think is going to happen. Our contract is going to get tossed, however if a judge imposes anything, based on the company's responses to questions, etc in court, I could see the judge implementing ALPA's plan based on the first ask of $33 million, not the company's latest ask. Sure, keep negotiating for the next 25 days from the end of the hearings, but don't bet on anything happening. The company has been playing for the JCBA to be tossed for months now, and it's the only play they have. If it gets tossed, they win big. If ALPA's current offer gets implemented they still win. If they get more concessions from the pilots in the meantime, they still win. There's really no loss for the company if they keep dragging it out.

This is also based on just what I've read in the ALPA communications. I haven't talked to anyone that was in the courtroom, so for all I know, the communications were picking and choosing things to show the hearings in a more positive light.

Joe, John's right. Doesn't matter if you're at 9E or Eagle or XJT. All ANY of us can do is sit back and wait at this point. If you're lucky, you'll get the chance to vote "No" on some crap like the FAs got. Wow. After reading that, I had to wonder if the AFA even bothered to show up to negotiations. Assuming something comes out in the next couple of weeks, I'll likely just abstain from voting myself.
 

sherpa

Well-Known Member
The company made the point that AE's parent company has a few billion dollars to help buffer any costs where pncl does not have that luxury and has zero cushion. Basically they made it sound like if anyone has an unplanned fart, the company busts. That was the distinction they argued on how eagle did in their ch11 process.
 

kellwolf

Piece of Trash
The company made the point that AE's parent company has a few billion dollars to help buffer any costs where pncl does not have that luxury and has zero cushion. Basically they made it sound like if anyone has an unplanned fart, the company busts. That was the distinction they argued on how eagle did in their ch11 process.
Yet they pissed away millions of dollars in savings on that LOA when they refused to even entertain the idea of running the cost savings at wages other than their proposed rates. Sounds like Spanjers and Co actually WANT to be unemployed.
 

undsioux1

Well-Known Member
I would be very interested in reading updates published by the company to get their take on how last week went. The union made it seem like the ALPA lawyers hit a homerun and the company had no leg to stand on. Would be interesting to hear the otherside of the story.
 

bronco21016

I know H.T.M.L. (How To Meet Ladies)
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I could see the judge implementing ALPA's plan based on the first ask of $33 million, not the company's latest ask.
If I'm not mistaken the way this works is the judge simply gets to decide if the JCBA is either tossed out or remains intact. The judge doesn't get to just sit back and choose which agreement is used. So if he doesn't toss it out we do what AA did and go back to the table and possibly through the 1113 process again after a bit more negotiation. If he tosses it out then the company does whatever they want. We no longer work under a collective agreement and they can go even further than the 1113. It's been disgusting but rather convenient having AA a few steps ahead of us in this process simply to see how things kinda work.

I may be incorrect but that's my understanding of the process. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
 

undsioux1

Well-Known Member
-

If I'm not mistaken the way this works is the judge simply gets to decide if the JCBA is either tossed out or remains intact. The judge doesn't get to just sit back and choose which agreement is used. So if he doesn't toss it out we do what AA did and go back to the table and possibly through the 1113 process again after a bit more negotiation. If he tosses it out then the company does whatever they want. We no longer work under a collective agreement and they can go even further than the 1113. It's been disgusting but rather convenient having AA a few steps ahead of us in this process simply to see how things kinda work.

I may be incorrect but that's my understanding of the process. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
Incorrect...the company cannot impose anything worse than the latest 1113 (which is still pretty bad). "Throwing out our contract" has been a term thrown around too much lately. The company does not completely throw the contract in the trash, they impose the terms of the 1113. According to the union on one of the P2P calls no ALPA carrier has had a contract fully imposed on them. The judge ruled that American could impose terms on its pilots, and the company has laid out a timeline where the full 1113 won't be imposed until next year.
 

jtrain609

Antisocial Monster
Incorrect...the company cannot impose anything worse than the latest 1113 (which is still pretty bad). "Throwing out our contract" has been a term thrown around too much lately. The company does not completely throw the contract in the trash, they impose the terms of the 1113. According to the union on one of the P2P calls no ALPA carrier has had a contract fully imposed on them. The judge ruled that American could impose terms on its pilots, and the company has laid out a timeline where the full 1113 won't be imposed until next year.
Not accurate, unfortunately. This is what I thought also, but the bankruptcy judge in the American case did just this.

The reference you're thinking of is the Northwest Flight Attendant's contract under a bankruptcy proceeding, where the judge stipulated that the parties would continue to negotiate, but that the company could not impose worse than what was their last offer to the pilot group.

Now could Pinnacle ALPA REQUEST this stipulation? Sure, but it doesn't look to be a requirement after what happened with the American pilot group.
 
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