The Student Being The Customer... discuss

jwp_145

jwp_145

GhostRider in the Sky
I started this thread after reading the old school/eletronic E6B debate, and it got me thinking...

Yes, the student is always the customer... so that means you treat them with respect, consideration, professionalism, and fairness.

But if I hear one more person say that if the student doesn't want to learn the old E6B they don't have to, I'll scream.

Yeah they don't have to use it, they can go fly with someone else.

The fact that the student is the customer does not give them the right to dictate their training to that degree. I say my student learns it, or he can fly with someone else. THAT is the only option he has concerning the old E6B.

What would have happened if I told Oklahoma State University that I didn't want to document things in APA format... I want to use MLA format. Why should it matter after all? Same result, a reference documentation. Well, because they said so, thats why. Yes I'm the customer, but I'm also a student.
 
jwp_145 said:
I started this thread after reading the old school/eletronic E6B debate, and it got me thinking...

Yes, the student is always the customer... so that means you treat them with respect, consideration, professionalism, and fairness.

But if I hear one more person say that if the student doesn't want to learn the old E6B they don't have to, I'll scream.

Yeah they don't have to use it, they can go fly with someone else.
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Both of those statements are correct. Just as the student has the right to choose which E6B to use, the instructor has the right to not do business with that student anymore.

It goes both ways.
 
Well I guess you could say that in the end the student has the right to choose which E6B he uses. But it is a fairly convoluted way of excercising that option.

I had the right to choose which college text books to use. But I had to go to a different college to use them.

And I'm not arguing here for a decrease in student rights. On a daily basis I have to pull instructors aside and tell them to treat their students with respect.

If one of my PPL students told me he wasn't going to fly with me anymore because he couldn't use his electronic one, I wouldn't want him as a student, because if he argues with me over something like that, who's to say that he would listen to me on much more critical things?

But, does a student pilot really have the knowledge and experience to tell me, the instructor, which tool he is going to use?

Would an A&P student argue with his instructor that he wants to use a different type of wrench because he likes it better? Most certainly not.

Ok, so in that vein of thought, is it acceptable for a PPL student to demand that he:
-Use a spreadsheet for weight and balance, because he doesn't like doing the paper form.
-Go GPS direct because he doesn't want to learn how to do that old cross country flight planning.
-Use fltplan.com to do a cross country flight plan because he doesn't like doing it by hand.

It was also said that a DPE can't refuse a student because he has an electronic E6B.
WHY NOT? I know an examiner that will tear up the 8710application if the student said yes to a drug conviction, regardless of the reason. He can discontinue the ride, not accept any money, and walk away without ever issuing a pink slip.

Additionally, students are constantly fishing for answers until they receive a 'yes'. What does that tell a student if many instructors say no, only to finally find one that says yes. That is just reinforcing that notion that they can dictate everything simply because they sign the checks.
 
I tend to agree with you on all points with this. mtsu_av8er is spot-on as well.

At the end of the day though, the reality is that a student who refuses to learn the standard E6B is probably the person who is always trying to cut corners and (may I be so bold as to say) the type of person more likely to die in an accident caused by gross human error.

I like to use the spreadsheets I have on my laptop - W&B, XC flight planning, etc; however, I didn't get and use them until after learning the old fashioned way because hey, who knows when this old Dell will up and croak.:buck:
 
ladder360 said:
I tend to agree with you on all points with this. mtsu_av8er is spot-on as well.

At the end of the day though, the reality is that a student who refuses to learn the standard E6B is probably the person who is always trying to cut corners and (may I be so bold as to say) the type of person more likely to die in an accident caused by gross human error

I like to use the spreadsheets I have on my laptop - W&B, XC flight planning, etc; however, I didn't get and use them until after learning the old fashioned way because hey, who knows when this old Dell will up and croak.:buck:
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I could not have said that ANY better myself, and I highlighted the parts I really agreed with.
 
ladder360 said:
I like to use the spreadsheets I have on my laptop - W&B, XC flight planning, etc; however, I didn't get and use them until after learning the old fashioned way because hey, who knows when this old Dell will up and croak.:buck:
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I agree! Leaning the old fashion way, and not just talking about the E6B, is the best way to go. When I did my PPL, I learned XC by navigating by using a sectional, marking off your timed checkpoints, and if I wasn't sure where I was, I would cross check VOR's (or fly low and read the water tower once). I never even sat in a plane with GPS until I started my Instrument rating. I know people who have NEVER flown a plane without GPS. Learning the old traditional ways of XC planning with the E6B and old school navigation makes young pilots more organized pilots in my opinion, and it's okay for an instructor to take that opinion with their students.
 
aifiji said:
I agree! Leaning the old fashion way, and not just talking about the E6B, is the best way to go. When I did my PPL, I learned XC by navigating by using a sectional, marking off your timed checkpoints, and if I wasn't sure where I was, I would cross check VOR's (or fly low and read the water tower once). I never even sat in a plane with GPS until I started my Instrument rating. I know people who have NEVER flown a plane without GPS. Learning the old traditional ways of XC planning with the E6B and old school navigation makes young pilots more organized pilots in my opinion, and it's okay for an instructor to take that opinion with their students.
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I completely agree with ladder360. Once the student has learned the old fashioned, without technology way, and has earned his PPL and IS the PIC, do whatever you want, because at that point I know I taught you the manual way, and if something were to happen, it's off my back.

On a related note, I had an instructor where I taught at who gave instruction to students with the electronic E6B. While on a cross country, guess who's batteries crapped out.... Luckily it was a clear VMC say but is it always....?
 
Coincidentally, a guy at my FBO busted his PPL check last week because he had created his XC flight plan via a web-based planner, which isn't in and of itself a problem, but he couldn't explain the calculations to the examiner. Bummer because he was near flawless up to that point. Oops!
 
So you guys are saying I'm a crappy pilot because I don't know how to use a slide rule era device?

I suppose that engineers should look down on their coworkers when they whip out a slide rule and their coworkers look at them and say what the hell is that?

I suppose computer scientists who bust out their old punch cards should look down on those who say, what are those?

I've never had an instructor nor examiner who had a problem with me not knowing nor caring about how to use a mechanical E6B. All they cared about was whether or not I could compute what needed to be computed.

And isn't that what it's all about? Isn't it about getting the job done?
 
tonyw said:
So you guys are saying I'm a crappy pilot because I don't know how to use a slide rule era device?
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Nobody is saying that, especially if one understands how the calculations are made. In my opinion, younger pilots training for their PPL would be better off to learn the traditional ways, as the E6B is a bit more relevant to modern GA flying than a slide rule or punch cards are to modern engineering and computer science. It gives them good hands on experience in understanding the mechanics of XC planning and quick computations.
 
Ummm...I can't believe I'm saying this, but I kinda agree with Tony. Isn't either one a tool, and using the tool properly the important thing?

Why do you decide that the older technology is alright to use and the newer isn't? Can't you just as easily say 'You could lose your manual E6B, do all the calculations using paper and pencil.' You're really not learning any theory using the 'whiz wheel', you're just learning how to use a tool.

This coming from someone with several thousand hours dual given, your mileage may vary. Also, I HATE electronic E6B's, they take three times as long to use as the wheel. Peace!
 
ppilot said:
Also, I HATE electronic E6B's, they take three times as long to use as the wheel. Peace!
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Thats the truth. Punching in all that info takes longer than spin and look to me.

As far as the argument goes, a student chooses the institution, and the institution chooses the curriculum. Thats it. A student is a student. This isn't public school. It's elective education. They are not owed anything other than a rock solid flying foundation that includes knowing all the tools of the trade. If they want to cheat and fly solo cross countries using only GPS, well than the will be average at driving the airplane. They can learn to use pilotage and a whiz wheel and turn out to be pretty good aviators. GPS can go out, and batteries die. A great pilot knows how to be prepared for every irregularity a flight can throw at them.
 
The instructor's job is to prepare the student to pass the written, oral and, flight tests required for the certificate and rating the student wants to obtain. Therefore, your answer lies within the practical test standards and regulations governing aeronautical experience and knowledge for a given certificate and/or rating. If a demonstration of knowledge and proficiency vis-a-vis a manual E6B is required by those standards, then the student must do so. Similarly, if the flight school you work at has an FAA approved syllabus that requires the subject be taught, then you must do so. However, in the absence of such requirements, it is not your place to say what the student "ought to learn." You can reccomend it. You can encourage it. But you cannot require it.

Refusing to take on such a student is an option, I suppose. But what are the legal considerations to such an action? Can a discrimination lawsuit be filed against a flight school or instructor for refusing a student?

That said, the manual E6B is not particularly complicated. Anyone capable of earning an airman certificate ought to be able to sit down on his own with an E6B and an instruction manual and figure it out. As it is said, "it is a license to learn"
 
Honestly though, how often will you come across a student pilot, new to the world of GA that will be arrogant enough to refuse a suggested piece of equipment from their experienced CFI, assuming that they know better. If you have a student like that, there are more problems than convincing them to use the whiz wheel. :banghead:
 
aifiji said:
Honestly though, how often will you come across a student pilot, new to the world of GA that will be arrogant enough to refuse a suggested piece of equipment from their experienced CFI, assuming that they know better. If you have a student like that, there are more problems than convincing them to use the whiz wheel. :banghead:
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My thoughts exactly. The symptoms can often be more fatal than the illness itself.
 
Instructors have a responsibility to train students to the standards of the PTS. They also have the responsibility to inculcate a mindset that goes beyond the PTS standards, one that some people call "airmanship."

Teach them to take responsibility for the flight (be the PIC) and to not take shortcuts when it comes to understanding the things that affect the safety of flight (weather, flight planning, W&B, performance, navigation, etc.)

In my opinion, pilotage is a required skill for initial Private Pilot training, because it is, after all, a VFR license. Understanding how wind will affect your groundspeed and crab angle is also required. I'm not a fan of electronic E6Bs, either, but I guess if students could satisfactorily explain what it was doing (resolving wind into crosswind and headwind components, and how it used that information to calculate time, heading, fuel burn, etc., then it is just another tool, the same as the "whiz wheel." If we wanted to get really technical, we could require everyone to learn the trigonometry to calculate this stuff without an E6B at all, but no one is advocating that (I don't think.)

With the spreadsheet, if the student built the spreadsheet, and it works, I'd say "power to 'ya," because it shows an understanding of the subject.

With all of the tools, if it's truly a tool, great. If it's a shortcut to understanding the subject, then it's unacceptable.
 
The students are my customers, buying the services I provide.

If they do not like the services they recive from me, they are free to go elsewhere.


I will not budge on fundmentals, but other trivial stuff like manual or electonic E6bs I leave to the students discretion. As long as they know how to use the tools, I don't care.
 
skydog said:
The instructor's job is to prepare the student to pass the written, oral and, flight tests required for the certificate and rating the student wants to obtain. Therefore, your answer lies within the practical test standards and regulations governing aeronautical experience and knowledge for a given certificate and/or rating. If a demonstration of knowledge and proficiency vis-a-vis a manual E6B is required by those standards, then the student must do so. Similarly, if the flight school you work at has an FAA approved syllabus that requires the subject be taught, then you must do so. However, in the absence of such requirements, it is not your place to say what the student "ought to learn." You can reccomend it. You can encourage it. But you cannot require it.

Refusing to take on such a student is an option, I suppose. But what are the legal considerations to such an action? Can a discrimination lawsuit be filed against a flight school or instructor for refusing a student?

That said, the manual E6B is not particularly complicated. Anyone capable of earning an airman certificate ought to be able to sit down on his own with an E6B and an instruction manual and figure it out. As it is said, "it is a license to learn"
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YES I CAN REQUIRE IT.
AND NO THEY HAVE NO LEG TO STAND ON FOR DISCRIMINATION.

And I noticed someone else say that "Where would you encounter a private student so bold...?" Sir, you have never instructed Indians it seems.
 
tprops4me said:
thats The Truth. Punching In All That Info Takes Longer Than Spin And Look To Me.

as Far As The Argument Goes, A Student Chooses The Institution, And The Institution Chooses The Curriculum. Thats It. A Student Is A Student. This Isn't Public School. It's Elective Education. They Are Not Owed Anything Other Than A Rock Solid Flying Foundation That Includes Knowing All The Tools Of The Trade. If They Want To Cheat And Fly Solo Cross Countries Using Only Gps, Well Than The Will Be Average At Driving The Airplane. They Can Learn To Use Pilotage And A Whiz Wheel And Turn Out To Be Pretty Good Aviators. Gps Can Go Out, And Batteries Die. A Great Pilot Knows How To Be Prepared For Every Irregularity A Flight Can Throw At Them.
Click to expand...
amen, Yes Yes Yes Yes
 
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