teaching engine failure on takeoff

[mshunter]

First time we did a single engine ILS, 2 miles out he says "OK, gear down and stabilized", puts the gear and two notches out. So we start going below glideslope at blue line. I asked if he had the runway made with enough potential energy. He said "yeah, by 400 feet, I should be gear down and stabilized." I asked him to point to the runway if he has it made. He says "but I'm still under the hood". Thanks, ATP!

I went to ATP, and that's not how they taught it.

The latter is unfortunately understated a lot of the time. True story - In our Seminole I pulled a throttle just after liftoff. This guy was "trained" (more like processed) at ATP by a 4 month zero to hero MEI where he busted his multi-private. His reaction was simply to say "holy sh*t" and start pulling back. So, in went the power, my controls, and I demonstrated how to do it on the next pass. Expect your test pilots to make the wrong choice every time, and be ready to take over.

Neither was this. Just curious, why were you training this guy if he already had an MEI?

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Ouch....ok, enough stories about this guy! They make me want to start drinking and it's only 11:37.

A pox on stabilized approaches in piston airplanes.

 

[shdw]

How do you teach simulated engine failure on take off to a student pilot?

I used to say go and do it, but: http://dms.ntsb.gov/aviation/AccidentReports/31cuxn45afscqg45lexahw551/R05212013120000.pdf

That happened at my airport last year. I've pictures that I will not post, but the result was pretty bad. The student was hospitalized for months with serious lacerations to the face requiring extensive reconstructive surgery and some broken bones. They were practicing returning to the field on an upwind failure. So whatever you decide is best for you, just be careful.

 

[sounddoc]

I went to ATP, and that's not how they taught it.

Neither was this. Just curious, why were you training this guy if he already had an MEI?

He doesn't have an MEI, he busted his multi-private at ATP, and is training with me now to take the checkride again. I'm sure ATP doesn't teach things that way, and i'm not trying to make a sweeping generalization based on one student (I also respect the tons of contributions from you I've read since joining), but I'm working with a someone who's understanding of multi engine airplanes is that everything needs to happen automatically, immediately and without any thought. I did a time building program at another 141 and I saw the same thing there in my flying partners. Training that out of someone is not easy. He can explain everything, but has no correlation when it comes to flying the airplane. His CFI at ATP probably bought his first logbook not too long ago according to him, and it's painfully evident to me, and to his wallet.

 

[desertdog71]

I taught them at below 50% Vmc on the roll. Above 400 agl on climb out. Mixture on the ground. Throttle and block in climb out.

At altitude anything goes. I routinely turned fuel off.



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[desertdog71]

Of course I trained in a Twin Comanche which some called crazy. I didn't see any big deal. Only time turning fuel off was a problem was when my student handed me the fuel selector that came off in his hand. So we landed OEI, no big deal.

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[SteveC]

Of course I trained in a Twin Comanche which some called crazy. I didn't see any big deal. Only time turning fuel off was a problem was when my student handed me the fuel selector that came off in his hand. So we landed OEI, no big deal.

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My one and only engine "failure" was in our Twin Comanche when the fuel selector valve linkage rod got bent and jammed - couldn't get back to the main tank and ran the aux dry.

 

[desertdog71]

My student looks at me..."uh, this might be a problem" and hands me the fuel selector. I tried to stick it back on but it wouldn't lift the pin to actually switch the tank. It has a recessed Allen screw that holds it on and allows you to lift and select. So I guess after 40 years it got loose.

That plane had gremlins, mainly the mechanics.

 

[Flying Ninja]

The key to teaching this is in a single (since you didn't specify) is not necessarily practicing it, but having them do a thorough takeoff briefing from day one. The briefing should include an emergency plan and you should question them on the plan after takeoff ( foe example, at 500' ask thenm where they would go). Imo, this method get's them in the right frame of mind for every departure.

I teach students this on a long runway. They do the takeoff emergency briefings, but the first time I simulate an engine failure after rotation, they flake and freeze up and not sure what they're supposed to do, even though they correctly briefed it. There's a difference between briefing it for the sake of briefing it, and briefing it and know to act when the time comes. That surprise factor and brain freeze is very real.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

I used to say go and do it, but: http://dms.ntsb.gov/aviation/AccidentReports/31cuxn45afscqg45lexahw551/R05212013120000.pdf

That happened at my airport last year. I've pictures that I will not post, but the result was pretty bad. The student was hospitalized for months with serious lacerations to the face requiring extensive reconstructive surgery and some broken bones. They were practicing returning to the field on an upwind failure. So whatever you decide is best for you, just be careful.

Dead link. Give us a docket number.

 

[shdw]

Dead link. Give us a docket number.

I think this is what you want? ERA12CA204

If not just go to the NTSB database search: http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/index.aspx

Search the tail number N518F, the one out of Bedminster NJ.