Student Pilot, CFI Issue

RookiePilot

RookiePilot

Well-Known Member
Good Evening, I am attending a medium-sized flight school, the one with the really old airplanes, (HINT!) here in Florida, which will remain nameless for indentification purposes.

The issue as the thread implies is my CFI, she is quite overbearing and I'm against a rock and a hard place with this problem.

I spent my life savings, which wasn't much, but most of which I used to move me and my stuff down here. I like the school and most of the students seem pretty cool, and the staff on their good days are easy to work with.

I have been here roughly one month, maybe a little less than. And flying with this Instructor has made me reconsider my aviation career aspirations, it has gone this far.

I've used the usual avenue of talking with the Chief Flight Instructor, and I felt as if today when we spoke briefly, he 'rared' back in his leather chair did most of the talking for the few moments we did speak. This was the second time we spoke about this issue, his reponse as the last, was he'd speak with my instructor and get back with me, I asked on the last ocassion we spoke to receive if possible another instructor.

I'm not a brand new aviation student, I am very limited in my experience as far flight training, before the school I'm at now I was up in Oakland at SAA. I did the GS up there and logged about 20 hours or so before the ownership change. I also logged about 10 hours or so an FBO at the SMO airport prior to spending the cash and, subsequently losing thousands up at SAA.
But thats another story, for another time.

My issue and the point of this thread, last night and on several ocassions my instructor 'barks' at me in the airplane, I don't mean instructional lesson giving, I mean ego boosting stuff (For instance, after the lesson we're shooting the breeze and stuff, and my instructor in no uncertain terms tells me that she's a gneius, IQ 165 and genius is at 130, which I believed to be 160, but no big difference!) we're on final at 750', I should be at 650-700' and I'm at 80kts, the checklist says 65-75, I've just turned final and I'm working to get my AS under control having an all out arguement with my instructor, and working to get my landings on 'the spot'.

What can a student do in this type of situation? :banghead:

I have flown with no less than a dozen instructors in my aviation training, and everyone of them was top notch, we got along quite well, flew the airplane exceedingly well, and I learned usually after only being shown a manuver once.

A story I'd like to share, my instructor up at SAA, a Korean guy, he was totally cool. I mean I had like 8 hours at the school and this is OAK in the summertime, FOG, and so its only a 7-800' base, and tops are 1500' or so. So we file IFR to VFR on top and head out, then shoot the ILS back into the airport, easy enough. At SMO, the instructors were just happy to have a student to teach, and a chance to go flying, love the SFRA over LAX.

Okay to tie all this together, what is the opinion of some of the other pilots here, as well as some instructors if you may, I'd greatly apprecitate it.
 
I know this is obvious and I'm not trying to be a smart a** but, your the customer, it's your money and your time. DEMAND a different instructor. Don't go in there to listen to the Chief pilot, go in there, say what you need to say before he talks and expect nothing less than what you want. I had an issue similar at a school in Kissimmee (Not sure which yours is) and I finally went in, asked to speak to the chief, managers and the FBO owner until I got what I wanted because I chose them to give me the service I wanted. If they turn you off to them, they stand to lose thousands of dollars. And BTW, if you haven't already, don't put all your money down at once, do it in increments. :)
 
I am sorry to hear that this is happening to you and I can relate to some extent.
About 2 years ago I resumed my PPL training after an extended break lol.Anyways my new instructor was an older woman with 25+ years of flying/instructing under her belt.There were many times in flight where she would bark at me too.I mean , I can understand if you are doing something totally unsafe but it seemes that she was nagging me more than teaching.It came to a point where I was really discouraged and upset to say the least because I loved to fly and have always wanted to do it. I really thought about quiting, I began to think I must really suck(lack of a better term) as a pilot.It got the the point that I loathed going to lessons!

The point I'm trying to make is--in my experience,I found even harder to learn and put in the effort to fly when you are completely uncomfortable.I decided that it would be in my best interest to change instructors.To my advantage,I have 2 FBO's within 15 miles of each other,changed instructors and FBO's and I am having the time of my life now!My new instructor is awesome.

I see that it may not be as easy for you as it was for me,but if it makes you uncomfortable, I would seriously look for a new instructor at the school.It may be an weird(like breaking uo with someone but you still see them everyday lol) but very much worth it! If that doesnt work hopefully you can take you money elsewhere.

Dont give up and dont let one person ruin it for you.

Hope this helps some and best of luck to you!
GTlyon
 
I suspose I'm a bit timid as far as speaking with the Chief Flight Instructor and also my Instructor, which may be the reason why I'm having this 'Issue' in the first place. Reluctancy, as far as not wanting seem like a 'Jerk' or come across this way.

Thanks for the advice, I've got the weekend to sit and come to a conclusion. My CFI asked to have Sun off, I agree as I like to attend religious services myself. But I do believe she is flying tomorrow, just not with me.

Just to add, did I mention that I'm attending a relatively large flight school, and I've only flown one day this week, 3 flights in the same day, due inconsistency, this has to be great for my learning ability. As well as cost savings. I feel as though she expects perfection from a 35 hour pilot, (She has said on many an ocassion that I'll have to fly 300 hours with her before she will allow me SOLO,) which I now more than ever completely agree to a 98% probability with the 'high-timers' around in the saying that a 'low-time' pilot does not belong in an RJ.

The 2% being my involvement with the military, my dad flew an entire career in the AF and now flies for an LCC out on the West Coast.
 
Scarily, I think I can guess the school and instructor.

It's your money, sounds to me like you need another instructor, and/or another school
 
RookiePilot said:
I feel as though she expects perfection from a 35 hour pilot, (She has said on many an ocassion that I'll have to fly 300 hours with her before she will allow me SOLO,) which I now more than ever completely agree to a 98% probability with the 'high-timers' around in the saying that a 'low-time' pilot does not belong in an RJ.
Click to expand...

Talk to the boss. Not the Chief Pilot. Demand a change to a better CFI. If they don't make the change, get your money back and get the heck out of there.

Running a flight school is about education and customer service. If you can't be an educator (ie no arguments with students) and have piss-poor relations with students, the school shouldn't be in business.

But they are, because they have the advertising dough and can swindle more students out of their money while providing sub-par aviation education. :banghead:

Rant off.

Michael :rawk:
 
You need to let the instructor know in no uncertain terms that you are the customer and yelling will not be tolerated. You will be treated with respect or you will get a new instructor.

As for the CP, do the same. Tell him/her that if things do not change you will demand a different instructor. You are paying a butt-load of money and there is no call for being treated as you are.

I can speak to the instructor issue as I had similar problem and it only happened ONCE. The individual spoke in a tone that I did not appreciate (while in the air) and they knew right away that it would not be tolerated anymore. You have to speak up.

Now as to having the confrontation while you are setting up for landing, that is especially uncalled for. If that happens again, call for a go-around, note the time, tell her your airplane and let her land the thing. Then walk straight to the CP and or his boss and demand the change.
 
Here is another view.

Could it be that you are the problem? Is it that you don't pay attention to what the instructor is asking you to achieve? (unless she "barks"). Remember the "shooting the breeze" could be a realistic distraction and she is waiting for you to start acting like a pilot in command instead of a student. Not the best way to push you, i agree, but could this be what she is doing?

Why have you had so many instructors? Could it be that you are a "know it all " that is difficult to instruct and blames everybody else for their lack of progress? Could your attitude be making the instructor/chief frustrated and so confrontational?

I recommend asking yourself this question.
"am I doing everything I can to make this easy for myself and the instructor?"
if not what can I do?
Study harder, get the written test done, ask what we will do on the next lesson and revise the material.
I am assuming you are wanting to do this as a career. Be the perfect student, the one you would like to teach.

That being said, if you can answer "yes" to the above, talk with some of the other instructors, find one you like and ask him to take you over.

Good luck
 
t82 said:
Here is another view.

Could it be that you are the problem? #1 Is it that you don't pay attention to what the instructor is asking you to achieve? (unless she "barks"). #2 Remember the "shooting the breeze" could be a realistic distraction and she is waiting for you to start acting like a pilot in command instead of a student. .....

#3 ..... Could your attitude be making the instructor/chief frustrated and so confrontational?

#4 , talk with some of the other instructors, find one you like and ask him to take you over.

Good luck
Click to expand...

#1 No matter the problems with the yelling/barking provides no benefit. He is the customer. If you were spending you $$$ on something else and received the service he appears to be getting, would you stand for it? Didn't think so.

#2 Distractions while in cruise is one thing, but if it is obvious he is having trouble with landings that is the last place to distract him.

#3 Again, he is the customer and the other parties have no right to give that sort of customer service and he has no responsibility to take it.

#4 finally something we can agree on. :)
 
My point is that there are always two sides to every story and just because you are paying, it does not mean you are right.
A student should have as much responsibility as the instructor in becoming a pilot (some may argue more because it is their money).
Barking may not be yelling (which I agree is unacceptable).
Imagine being in pattern as the instructor and saying "watch your airspeed" normally 2 or 3 times and then raising your voice for emphasis to prevent a dangerous situation. Some students block out sound in a stressful situation.

Overall it sounds to me like a communication problem that could easily be resolved if both student and instructor laid out their expectations. It just takes some guts to confront the instructor. You might want to send her the link to this forum.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by t82
Here is another view.

Could it be that you are the problem? #1 Is it that you don't pay attention to what the instructor is asking you to achieve? (unless she "barks"). #2 Remember the "shooting the breeze" could be a realistic distraction and she is waiting for you to start acting like a pilot in command instead of a student. .....

#3 ..... Could your attitude be making the instructor/chief frustrated and so confrontational?

#4 , talk with some of the other instructors, find one you like and ask him to take you over.

Good luck


To answer your question(s) as I have said previously in my intro post, that I believe that I am a 'reasonable' student.

'I'm not a brand new aviation student, I am very limited in my experience as far flight training, before the school I'm at now I was up in Oakland at SAA. I did the GS up there and logged about 20 hours or so before the ownership change. I also logged about 10 hours or so an FBO at the SMO airport prior to spending the cash and, subsequently losing thousands up at SAA.!!!!!!!!!!' Which is the reason I've flown with a number of CFIs The majority at SMO, its tough to fly with the same person when, you training takes breaks between payday's.

#1) " I've just turned final and I'm working to get my AS under control having an all out arguement with my instructor, and working to get my landings on 'the spot'.

Somehow I do not believe in my humble student opinion that this is the suitable moment to have an arguement. And is 5 kts, a reason distract from what would have been a very well executed approach.


#2) The shooting the breeze was about an 1/2 hour or so outside the airplane. On several ocassions, which may also have contributed to this issue, we have gone out to lunch, my dime. On my cross-country flight, I took my Instructor, another Instructor and myself to a decently priced lunch at an airport cafe. My CFI had complained of the low pay and relatively long hours of the job and I sympathize with this, as I know God willing, I'll have this opportunity some day.

#3) Ive not said too much to our Chief Instructor, he has for the most part done most of our conversing. Which I respect, he is the Chief and I'm the student, coming from a relatively military background I am sure to show him plenty of respect. However, unlike the military, which I hope to be a part of someday, (ANG, or AFRES) I am paying alot of my very hard earned cash here, along with a "healthy" sized loan.

#4) I've been wary about this one, as I said I don't want to come across as a total 'JERK', as I've only been here a month. I've not had time to become well known by the instructor staff, or build a reputation for myself.

Thanks for your P.O.V., though, I have tried to see this as through my Instructor's eyes, so to speak.
 
Thanks for the insight.
I suggest sitting down with your instructor and setting some expectations.
I would assume (wrong,i know;)) that at 30 plus hours you should have reasonable control of the aircraft. Ask her to give you the parameters for her to solo you. Then you have a goal that is defined to work for. Explain that you learn better by not being barked at. Suggest what would work for you.

I hate to break it to you but your instructor is not a mindreader (though good ones come close). You have to let them know what you are thinking. Set ground rules on when this is going to happen i.e. not on final.

Your instructor was probably you 300 hours ago. Help her help you. Help yourself by being proactive. Think what would I want my student to do when I am a CFI. Then do it.

Let us know how it goes.
 
As a new CFI, I always welcome comments from my students. I told them up front if they have questions or opinions, just ask. My pre-solo student told me today that he can feel my feet too much on the rudders when we taxi. I explained to him that it is my job to make sure we don't hit anything. He was feeling that he couldn't be trusted to taxi the airplane by himself. I really appreciated the fact that he told me how he felt. I believe he can maintain safe control of the airplane so next time I will try to keep my feet off the rudders unless necessary. I am still developing my teaching style and I want his learning experience to be the best possible. Keep your students happy (but safe). They pay your salary.
 
I also attended a medium flight school in Florida with older planes and had several issues with instructors. I wound up not saying anything till towards the end of my insturment rating and wound up paying for it (in extra training) but did make another change which expedited my commecial training. Long story short, you are the customer say something...
 
I may have missed it, but have you talked to your instructor about how you feel? Sometimes, you can get things way out of proportion by skipping them and heading straight to the chief pilot (or flight instructor). This may, or may not, be something the two of you can resolve.

As far as a "very well executed approach", she may just want you to strive for perfection. The better you get, the more good flight instructors will push you. I do agree, however, that you shouldn't be arguing on short final.

Have other students had a problem with this particular instructor? Sometimes a pre-assumption of an instructor can also cloud your relationship. I once had a hard-a** instructor that everyone hated. She (yes, also a woman) was VERY tuff, but I am so glad now that she was. I am a better pilot because of her.
 
As a relatively new CFI, I have yet to raise my voice to a student, other than joking around with them after I know them a bit better ie: "don't EVEN make me touch the controls today!!" Different people have different teaching styles; hers may just not be working for you.
That said, the whole 'argument on final' discussion raised my eyebrows a bit. I teach sterile cockpit in the pattern- being distracted by a pissing match sounds like a problem waiting to happen. I usually think "How would this sound on an NTSB report". Remember the video of the pilot and pax yapping away with the gear horn honking on their crappy approach and very short, loud landing?
Talk to your current CFI first, to make sure all the cards are on the table. I've had students leave without talking to me over very minor, petty issues which we could have worked through in about 30 seconds.
 
Thanks for all the advice, specifically from the new(er) CFIs, you guys are terrific. I'm currently still taking lessons from my Insrtuctor, she is a handful, I was given the option to change, however she and I talked briefly and I somehow believe I may have made a mistake by not changing when offered the opportunity.

Tonight for instance, we were scheduled to fly a bare minimum X-country flight, exactly 55NM, from the start I got the feeling she would have rathered to have elsewhere. Then this morning when we were scheduled to fly I only logged approx. one hour, because after my preflight of the A/C, I sat in the plane and waited 15 mins or so, then walked inside to find her sitting at a desk discussing JEPs Revisions with a IR student. Then even after I showed up, I pulled up a chair and grabbed a Sporty's catalog and read for about 10 mins or so, and she complains that I cannot Solo, because there isn't time. Blocks are two hours I usually get to the Airport at about 5 mins before my scheduled time for the Airplane.

This is reasonable, is it?

I'm having second thoughts, about my decision to stay with my current CFI, I believe that somehow maybe she at least in my opinion has lost some of the 'Fun' I still even see in my Pop, he's been flying for over 30 years. Maybe its just CFI'ing' I realize it is a tough job, with long hours, and relatively low pay, but the job you guys have is so awesome and is really the building block of aviation.

Goodnight,
 
Change instructors. Some people just don't click. You seemed to have got along with your previous instructors. I bet when you got along with your previous instructors you had a better time and you learned more. Staying with this instructor will probably delay your progress ( cost more money ) and cause alot of frustration. It's not too late to change. I'm sure they would like to keep you as a customer. This endeavor requires alot of committment. The last thing you need is to be sitting a foot away from someone who is causing you this much distress. There is always going to be issues in getting along with people, but at this level, this sounds like it may actually hurt your aspirations.
 
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