Student PIC Time

Ramsey

Well-Known Member
I think this might have been discussed before, but I could not find it anywhere. Yesterday, when I was at the aeroclub, I heard an instructor tell a student that his solo cross country time did not count towards his cross county PIC time for his instrument rating. I later asked the instructor why that was the case and he told me because a student’s solo cross country time dos not count as PIC time! Of course my next question was “well, then who is the PIC of the flight?” The answer was the instructor on the ground.” I’ve looked this up in the FARS and can’t find an answer either way. So does solo ‘Student” time counts as PIC for the instrument rating or not?
 
61.65 (d) Aeronautical experience requirements for instrument rating -

1) At least 50 hours of cross-country flight time as pilot in command, of which at least 10 hours must be in airplanes for an instrument -- airplane rating; and


61.51 (e) Pilot logbooks/logging -

(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot--
(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;
(ii) Has a current solo flight endorsement as required under Sec. 61.87 of this part; and
(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating
 
It comes from before the 1996 revision of part 61, when that time did not count as PIC, but now it does.
 
Of course it counts as PIC time for the instrument rating. If the student pilot wasn't the PIC when he's doing a solo cross country, who was?
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Bull, I counted mine and the DE said nothing. There has been a rule change recently and now students log PIC time while solo.
 
[ QUOTE ]
you go ahead and count it but the examiners have been instructed to send you home.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sez who? I'm working on that rating right now and I have been told by the guy who will be giving me my ride that the cross country time logged as a solo student pilot counts.
 
perhaps it is a new rule.

I sent a student in 1996 who hadn't told me he counted his solo time in the PIC 50 hrs required FOLLOWING YOUR PRIVATE rating.

The examiner sent him home.

John H may be right, the rule might have been changed. Many others have been.
 
FAR part 61 was revised in 1996 to say that student pilot solo time is PIC time, I would have to dig, but I even believe that there have been FSDO opinions that state, solo time accrued by a pilot while they were a student before 1996 now can be counted as PIC time.
 
I guess the revision was in 1997

article from Aviation Safety :

LOGGING PILOT-IN-COMMAND TIME
by Al German



Proper logging of PIC time is a favorite subject of CFI’s sitting around these rainy days. And that’s not unusual since in the FAA’s own words in the Federal Register "The FAA acknowledges there has been confusion in the past regarding the logging of pilot-in-command time by these pilots and that inconsistent policy opinions have been issued by the FAA". In researching the subject FAR Parts 61 & 91, the Federal Register comments issued during the major revision to Part 61 in August 1997, "Federal Aviation Regulations Explained" published by Jeppesen, and various other aviation monthly publications were reviewed.
First lets be clear: who is, or can be, pilot-in-command (PIC) and who may log PIC time are two separate issues and are only sometimes related.

FAR Part 1 defines the pilot-in-command as follows: "Pilot-in-command means the person who:

Has the final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;
Has been designated as pilot-in-command before or during the flight; and
Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight."
Part 91.3 expands those comments making it clear that anything that happens during the flight is the sole responsibility of the pilot-in-command.

According to the Federal Register there are only three ways a private or commercial pilot can properly log pilot-in-command time.

When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated.
When the pilot is sole occupant of the aircraft.
When the pilot is acting as pilot-in-command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
Far Part 61.51 "Pilot logbooks" covers the logging of pilot time and section (e) addresses logging PIC time.

A private or commercial pilot may log PIC time if that person is "the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated" [61.51 (e)(1)(i)]

Thus a non-instrument rated pilot taking instrument flight instruction, if rated in the aircraft, may log PIC based on the "sole manipulator of the controls" rule. Since there is nothing in the rules that addresses meteorological conditions, the pilot may log PIC while in the clouds. This is supported by FAA chief counsel opinions [Federal Regulations Explained-Jeppesen].

A private or commercial pilot may log PIC time when "acting as pilot-in-command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the - - - - regulations under which the flight is conducted". [61.51 (e)(1)(ii)]

Normally, a safety pilot, required by regulations, who scans for traffic for a pilot flying under simulated instrument conditions is not pilot-in-command and thus logs second-in-command. However, if the two pilots agree that the safety pilot is designated pilot-in-command, the safety pilot/pilot-in-command may log PIC since he is the pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft. The pilot flying is "sole manipulator of the controls for which the pilot is rated"" and may also log PIC. Therefore, two private pilots may log PIC under these conditions. However, the safety pilot/pilot-in-command must realize that anything that occurs during the flight is his responsibility. Airspace violations, non-compliance with ATC instructions, near mid air collision, and runway incursions on the ground are all now charged to the safety pilot. A recent article in a monthly aviation publications discussed a flight where there was a violation and the two pilots disagreed who was pilot-in-command.

However, two pilots may not simultaneously log PIC when one pilot is sole manipulator of the controls and the other is acting as pilot-in-command if the regulations governing the flight do not require more than one pilot.

"An airline transport pilot may log as PIC time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport certificate." [61.51 (e)(2)] Previous regulations allowed a situation where three pilot (one an ATP) could log PIC simultaneously when conducting an operation which did not require an airline transport pilot. This is no longer allowed under the August 1997 revision.

A flight instructor may log PIC "while acting as a authorized instructor". No change to previous regulations.

A student pilot can now log PIC. That’s new, and since there is no restriction, your logbook can be updated so that all student solo time prior to August 4, 1997 may be logged as PIC. When an instructor is aboard, since the student is not rated in the aircraft, flight instruction is still logged as dual not PIC.

Then there are some unusual situations which occur. A private pilot flying with his friend (a CFI or ATP) aboard as a passenger. What is the status of the CFI or ATP who is obviously a more senior pilot with more experience than the private pilot? The regulations don’t address this situation, but the courts may find that the more senior pilot has some or all the responsibility for the operation or safety of the flight.

In summary, the person who is pilot-in-command may log PIC, others may also log PIC depending in the circumstances.
 
Wow! Thanks for the info. It sounds exactly like the discussion that we were having at the club. I know most pilots surpass the mins before they take a check ride, but I still feel that the student was entitled to an explaination as per the FARs and not what I or his CFI believed. So, like Tony said, “if the student is not the PIC then who is?” egggggggggggxactly! The revised rules make much more sense to me!

Thanks again for the info!!
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[ QUOTE ]
you go ahead and count it but the examiners have been instructed to send you home.


[/ QUOTE ]
Wrong. The DE's here count it as PIC time.
 
[ QUOTE ]
perhaps it is a new rule.

I sent a student in 1996 who hadn't told me he counted his solo time in the PIC 50 hrs required FOLLOWING YOUR PRIVATE rating.

The examiner sent him home.

John H may be right, the rule might have been changed. Many others have been.

[/ QUOTE ]

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Just goes to show who the OLD guys are LOL
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The DE I got my IFR rating counted the hours from my PPL as instrument time. 'Course my PPL CFI had his CFII, so I don't see why it wouldn't count. My x/c's for my PPL (the solo ones anyway) counted toward my 50 hour PIC total, too.
 
[ QUOTE ]
perhaps it is a new rule.

I sent a student in 1996 who hadn't told me he counted his solo time in the PIC 50 hrs required FOLLOWING YOUR PRIVATE rating.

The examiner sent him home.

John H may be right, the rule might have been changed. Many others have been.


[/ QUOTE ]
And you want to be a DE?????
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Methinks "SOMEBODY" needs to get back in the books and then MAYBE the Orlando FSDO might hook you up.
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[ QUOTE ]
perhaps it is a new rule.

I sent a student in 1996 who hadn't told me he counted his solo time in the PIC 50 hrs required FOLLOWING YOUR PRIVATE rating.

The examiner sent him home.

John H may be right, the rule might have been changed. Many others have been.

[/ QUOTE ]Yeah. It changed =seven= years ago. =Way= past time to hit the books.
 
Since I was in that boat in 1987, when the former rule was in-effect, can I "grandfather" my student pilot solo time to PIC?

I mean....I need all the PIC time I can get.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Since I was in that boat in 1987, when the former rule was in-effect, can I "grandfather" my student pilot solo time to PIC?

I mean....I need all the PIC time I can get.

[/ QUOTE ]

", I would have to dig, but I even believe that there have been FSDO opinions that state, solo time accrued by a pilot while they were a student before 1996 now can be counted as PIC time. "

Maybe it's time for suspilot to dig
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