Student having difficulties with radio.

Planedriver28

Planedriver28

Well-Known Member
Hey all you CFI types:

I have a student that is struggling with the radios. Here, when tower is closed, he is great. When tower is open, (class D by the way) he does pretty good.
We did a night X/C on sunday to a class C. He lost it with center, couldn't pick our N number out of the chatter. When we switched to Approach, he was totally scrambled, and never heard our airplane called. When I would read back what the controller said, he said that he couldn't listen to me / talk to me, and listen to approach at the same time. While I understand that this is a necessary skill, I also understand that it will come in time, and not all at once for him. Any advice on how I can make it 'make more sense' to him? I even briefed him in our ground session prior to the flight who he would be talking to, and the order. Center, Approach, Tower, Ground, etc.
Any help would be appreciated....
 
Planedriver28 said:
Hey all you CFI types:

I have a student that is struggling with the radios. Here, when tower is closed, he is great. When tower is open, (class D by the way) he does pretty good.
We did a night X/C on sunday to a class C. He lost it with center, couldn't pick our N number out of the chatter. When we switched to Approach, he was totally scrambled, and never heard our airplane called. When I would read back what the controller said, he said that he couldn't listen to me / talk to me, and listen to approach at the same time. While I understand that this is a necessary skill, I also understand that it will come in time, and not all at once for him. Any advice on how I can make it 'make more sense' to him? I even briefed him in our ground session prior to the flight who he would be talking to, and the order. Center, Approach, Tower, Ground, etc.
Any help would be appreciated....
Click to expand...

Tell him to go to liveatc.net, tune in a busy ctr./approach frequency, pick out a tail/flight number and listen for all of it's radio transmissions while listening to the music. Just lestening to it, with no clear objective will be of no help. You have to listen for a specific airplane. It might help, it has with some of my students.
 
This seems like it's just an example of the natural progression we all went through learning to talk on the radios. I'm guessing he/she is very green under the wings, 10ish hours?

What worked for me when I was learning was a piece of paper with all the common transmissions typed out and spaces to fill in the relevant information for the a/c and flight. Before taxiing this paper would be filled out and it made me a lot more comfortable because I didn't have to worry about screwing up the language.
 
mshunter said:
Tell him to go to liveatc.net, tune in a busy ctr./approach frequency, pick out a tail/flight number and listen for all of it's radio transmissions while listening to the music. Just lestening to it, with no clear objective will be of no help. You have to listen for a specific airplane. It might help, it has with some of my students.
Click to expand...

:yeahthat: I also have had students get flight following for every flight including our maneuver flights. They have to do the lesson while listening for random traffic calls, they don't happen often so it helps keep them on their toes. It needs to kind of be a second nature thing that you do without thinking or while thinking about many other things. Maneuver practice lessons tend to task the student and adding this is a great way to improve their task loading.
 
shdw said:
I also have had students get flight following for every flight including our maneuver flights. They have to do the lesson while listening for random traffic calls, they.
Click to expand...

Silly little question here. How do you phrase the request for flight following when you're not enroute to a destination?
 
oscarfish said:
Silly little question here. How do you phrase the request for flight following when you're not enroute to a destination?
Click to expand...
Call em up, then when they call you back ask something like "N12345 5 miles south of XYZ VOR at 3000ft, we'd like to request flight following while we do maneuvers in the area". I don't remember any guidance in the AIM about requesting flight following with no destination...so worst case just use plain english...the controllers speak that too and it beats a long stumbling question trying to sound like you're requesting clearance off an aircraft carrier :)
 
oscarfish said:
Silly little question here. How do you phrase the request for flight following when you're not enroute to a destination?
Click to expand...

Request traffic advisories, not flight following. Something like (after they call you back asking your request) cessna xxx is maneuver <location> we will be staying within 5 miles of this location between altitudes xxx and xxx requesting traffic advisories. It is almost like being in a VFR on top clearance, you are just giving them the parameters of your box instead of them giving them to you.
 
Local facilities may desire different phraseology but AOPA says:

Q: I’ve heard pilots request both, but what is the difference between VFR flight following and traffic advisories?
A: There is no difference.
 
Clocks said:
Local facilities may desire different phraseology but AOPA says:

Q: I’ve heard pilots request both, but what is the difference between VFR flight following and traffic advisories?
A: There is no difference.
Click to expand...

Pilot controller glossary:

FLIGHT FOLLOWING−
(See TRAFFIC ADVISORIES.)


Apparently they agree too, never knew that thanks. Though I think many controllers and pilots are used to flight following being to some destination. I have asked many times when circling NYC and PHL for pictures for advisories and that is almost exclusively what I heard asked for above those airspaces when no destination was given by other circling pilots.

Also, I've never been asked for a destination after asking for advisories, so I don't know maybe it just adapted that way here in the east/northeast. However, whenever asking for flight following they bug me about where I am going if I don't tell them.
 
shdw said:
Pilot controller glossary:

FLIGHT FOLLOWING−
(See TRAFFIC ADVISORIES.)


Apparently they agree too, never knew that thanks. Though I think many controllers and pilots are used to flight following being to some destination. I have asked many times when circling NYC and PHL for pictures for advisories and that is almost exclusively what I heard asked for above those airspaces when no destination was given by other circling pilots.

Also, I've never been asked for a destination after asking for advisories, so I don't know maybe it just adapted that way here in the east/northeast. However, whenever asking for flight following they bug me about where I am going if I don't tell them.
Click to expand...


The controlers around here know our airplanes numbers, and when asking for help from ATC, usually if you ask for "flight following" they will want a destination. When I am going out to do air work with a student, I ask for "advisories" and it's kind of an unspoken thing that they know I'll be local and won't ask for a destination. Although it may be written differently by the FAA, there are a few things that some basic logic can solve.
 
:)
Planedriver28 said:
Hey all you CFI types:

I have a student that is struggling with the radios. Here, when tower is closed, he is great. When tower is open, (class D by the way) he does pretty good.
We did a night X/C on sunday to a class C. He lost it with center, couldn't pick our N number out of the chatter. When we switched to Approach, he was totally scrambled, and never heard our airplane called. When I would read back what the controller said, he said that he couldn't listen to me / talk to me, and listen to approach at the same time. While I understand that this is a necessary skill, I also understand that it will come in time, and not all at once for him. Any advice on how I can make it 'make more sense' to him? I even briefed him in our ground session prior to the flight who he would be talking to, and the order. Center, Approach, Tower, Ground, etc.
Any help would be appreciated....
Click to expand...

Radio shack sells an MP3 recorder that you can plug into the backseat headset jack. The student can listen to the entire flight afterword and pick out key phrases, etc.

This works wonders for my Asian guys....and they barley speak english
 
Liveatc.net and VATSIM (sorry) made me feel comfortable on the radios pretty early. I like to put liveatc.net on while I do homework, surf then net, etc.
 
the liveatc.net idea sounds like a great one.

I don't know what kind of response I'd get from approach asking for advisories around here (DEN). Some times it's tough just getting practice approaches- although if they have time for it around NYC...?
 
In my experiences, my students who had trouble on the radio just didn't know what to expect. This was huge once I figured it out. If they don't know they should be getting a call soon or what the call will even consist of, ATC might as well have been speaking jibberish. Do a ground lesson, and then go out and roll play. Go out 20 miles and come back while doing all the normal radio calls you would hear at a towered airport.
 
ftyflyboy said:
:)

Radio shack sells an MP3 recorder that you can plug into the backseat headset jack. The student can listen to the entire flight afterword and pick out key phrases, etc.

This works wonders for my Asian guys....and they barley speak english
Click to expand...

Wow, I really like that idea. Would you mind linking up the item from their website that you are talking about. It sounds like it would be a good teaching tool after the flight too, does it record all talk? Meaning inside the cockpit as well as ATC?
 
shdw said:
does it record all talk? Meaning inside the cockpit as well as ATC?
Click to expand...

I would have to guess the answer would be, yes. If it is plugged into the speaker jack then it should not be able to distinguish what sound is coming from where. It is everything that is heard in that headset unless you have the cockpit isolation button on if you have one. Great idea by the way and how much do they run? I know someone that could use this.
 
the radio always seems to be the last hurdle, I think it is because their brain is working hard on the simple task of flying the airplane...when these 'easy' tasks become muscle memory, the radio seems much easier to handle..the exception I guess is the ESL folks, then I just suggest liveatc.net, and lots of 'simulated' ATC while in the practice area!
 
not a CFI, but it was VATSIM and LiveATC.net that had me comfy with the radios before I ever stepped foot into a real thing. When I was in the Army, I spent my free time flying the virtual skies (flame me if you must) and was hooked by the ATC side of aviation (as it pertains to pilots).

At my discovery flight at CHD back in 2005, I asked the instructor if I could work the radios, which he was hesitant about, but when I was able to call up ground for taxi with the atis, he was flabbergasted.

I'd suggest the following:
Pick a sector where you know there is liveatc.net coverage (or for those in the Phoenix area, squawkvfr.com for the GA airports is awesome. Have your student pick a commercial flight on Flightaware, have him tell you what radio calls that flight should expect and from whom, tune in and go.
 
You know the Gorilla reminded me of something. I had a stray turkey show up at my house as a kid. We lived in the city too. I knew she was farm raised as she was solid white. But she was such a great friend. She did the same things as your goat did. As soon as I walked out the door, there was Henrietta. I fed her, she walked me to the bus stop. She slept on our front porch. She was quite the sight. Though I can't seem to find a lot of homeless turkies.


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